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jordan peterson is a psychologist and

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the author of 12 rules for life and

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beyond order both of which are in the

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description he's also a fellow

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torontonian and a professor emeritus at

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the university of toronto which is where

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i went as well in november 2021 i was

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lucky enough that jordan peterson

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interviewed me for his youtube channel

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which will also be in the description

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and over the last few months it

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accumulated several hundreds of

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thousands of views

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who would have guessed and we thought

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perhaps it would be impactful to release

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it here for a different audience knowing

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kurt that is me it's a mixture of jordan

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peterson interviewing me as well as me

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interviewing jordan peterson as that

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latter role is the one that i'm most

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interested and comfortable in we

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reference self-fulfilling beliefs deceit

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perception

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consciousness how does one

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scientifically study it as well as the

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definition of god if you'd like to hear

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more podcasts like these then consider

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visiting

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patreon.com slash kurt jaymungal that's

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and supporting with the contribution of

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whatever you can or whatever you like as

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the sponsors and the patrons are the

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only reason that i'm able to do this

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full time so thank you so much with

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regard to sponsors there are just two

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familiar with toe you're familiar with

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keep saying this i would like to do a

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unnatural to define it in any other

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a recommendation for a podcast for the

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inquisitive mind like yourself steven

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pinker the renowned cognitive

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psychologist who has been featured on

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this channel before and will be soon

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coming on again now has his own podcast

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the life of the mind which sheds a great

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deal of light on the mind the brain and

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their inner workings the life of the

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mind by stephen pinker takes us on a

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psychological journey unearthing truths

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about our own complex mind while

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shattering common fallacies that are

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deceptive and often weaken arguments

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pinker shapes our understanding of how

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our minds perceive what we see and

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perceptions of theme in today's podcast

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as well thus if the sections on

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perception and comprehending reality

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interest you then do check out his

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podcast on youtube or your favorite

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podcast catcher the links are below

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thank you and enjoy jordan peterson

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interviewing kurt j mungle interviewing

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jordan peterson a note on the physical

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mannerisms it's actually hilarious

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watching this because it looks as if i

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was mirroring jordan but this is

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completely coincidental i had a blank

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image on my screen specifically so i

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didn't see jordan while i was speaking

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to him as i was incredibly nervous

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during this interview given that it's

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the largest interview that i've done in

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terms of platform reach

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enjoy

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if our perceptions evolved and we

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evolved to adapt to reality and we don't

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see objects

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as the fundamental perceptual reality

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then what does that say about reality

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and that's not the answer to that

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question is not bloody obvious

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well that's another question i hope that

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i can get to with with dawkins you know

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and maybe he knows something that i

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yeah see i want to make the claim that

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it sounds then

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and i believe you've made this claim

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perhaps even viveki that the longer

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something has persisted evolutionarily

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the most quote unquote real it is

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however however then one would be acting

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as if there's something external

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that we're trying to map out and then

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the closer we are to that the closer our

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map is to that reality of course we're

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not trying to mistake the map in the

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territory

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well the whether or not material objects

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exist

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right and it's not obvious what the most

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[Music]

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hello everyone i'm pleased today to have

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with me kurt jaimungle he's a toronto

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based filmmaker with a background in

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mathematics and physics who directed and

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wrote the film better left unsaid which

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was released in april 2021

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that film explores the question of among

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other things when does the left go too

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far he's also the host of the theories

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of everything podcast and youtube

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channel which explores consciousness god

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free will theoretical physics and which

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just surpassed a hundred thousand

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subscribers in about one year about one

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year's time he's interviewed people

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including stephen pinker noam chomsky

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and john vervicky on the cognitive

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science side

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and stephen wolf from eric weinstein and

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sabine haasenfelder

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on the physics side

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you can find out more

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by visiting youtube.com forward slash

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theories of everything or searching

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theories of everything on spotify itunes

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or virtually any of the other audio

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platforms so you've been podcasting and

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running this youtube channel for how

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long about a year

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yeah slightly longer than a year now the

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channel's been up for approximately

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three years in the sense that it was

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registered three years ago but i've been

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going at it with force for about one

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year and a bit

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so who who has who have you interviewed

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noam chomsky

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and you're

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you're

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was the first person if not the only

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person to ask him about you directly

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oh so i don't know about that so there's

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something we could talk about right away

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so what did he have to say

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i think that people who are on a certain

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side on the political spectrum believe

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their side

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stands for what's good and the opposite

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side is what's not good one of the

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see that's so tricky man talking about

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better left and said which we'll get to

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later is how do you define the left and

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the right it's decidedly difficult

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almost everyone has a different

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definition

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chomsky would say well the left is

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freedom and so anything that's on the

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right is anti-freedom and the right

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people who are on the right or identify

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with being as such would

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yeah well it's interesting at least that

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they might circle around claims to some

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uh let's say virtue that both of them

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would admire like freedom

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right so there's some agreement there

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despite the different difference did he

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point to anything particular about what

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i hypothetically thought that made me

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not

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an acceptable sort of creature

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no

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it's somewhat it's somewhat hearsay in

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the sense that he read an article based

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on you so he didn't watch you directly

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he read nathan robinson's critique of

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you which i'm sure oh yeah well that'll

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do it man

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yeah yeah old nathan he's he's quite the

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character

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yeah i see so

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well that's too bad in many regards did

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you learn anything in particular from

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talking to

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dr chomsky

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quite a significant amount as for what i

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can point to let me think i spoke to him

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six times

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time about you i found it interesting

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that he said

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i asked each guest that i spoke to at

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the time because now i've pivoted away

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from politics for a reason for reasons

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we can get to later i asked him

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and every other guest when does the left

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go too far in some sense it's a

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petersonian question because you've

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raised that quite a few times

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when does the left go too far he said

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well it's not a matter of going too far

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for the left it's a matter of tactics as

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for when does the right go too far so

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while the right is

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suicidal i think was his words

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so that's that's interesting because

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it's really not much of an answer i mean

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i've been always looking for a technical

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definition of that right it's like well

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we know the right can go too far and we

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know the left can go too far and

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how do we point to

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and i think this problem has actually

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become more complicated rather than less

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because the more i've been thinking

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about it the more i think that

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the errors on the left are

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more in the nature of a vast number of

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small errors mostly of

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often of omission so the more um

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reasonable people on the left

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kowtow too rapidly to the more radical

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types on the left especially at the

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philosophical level and i think that

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really happened at the universities

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so well that's a one like that's

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something we can explore well it's

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actually a question i would have for you

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why do you think that is i know that

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this is mainly you interviewing me but

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i'm still perplexed when it comes to

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that why is it that the center left

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doesn't excoriate the extreme left is it

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because they're on the same side so the

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enemy of my enemy is my friend or are

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they afraid because

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well they can get

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you can lose even a tenured position

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well i think there's i think that fear

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and it isn't obvious to me that this is

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merely a problem that affects the left

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but i'm most familiar with it in the

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university's circumstance and so what i

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saw happening in my 25 years as a

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faculty member let's say i think that's

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about right

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00:10:23,910 --> 00:10:22,079
it's more than that actually but anyways

281
00:10:24,790 --> 00:10:23,920
quite a long time three decades let's

282
00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:24,800
say

283
00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:25,760
um

284
00:10:28,949 --> 00:10:26,800
was that

285
00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:28,959
whenever the administration pushed on

286
00:10:33,030 --> 00:10:31,120
the faculty

287
00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:33,040
so in our faculty meetings for example

288
00:10:37,030 --> 00:10:34,800
there would be administrative demands

289
00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:37,040
and they were often unreasonable they

290
00:10:41,509 --> 00:10:39,680
would increase the size of our our

291
00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:41,519
seminars say for our third and fourth

292
00:10:45,910 --> 00:10:43,760
year students ask us to do more work

293
00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:45,920
with fewer resources and that was a

294
00:10:50,470 --> 00:10:47,680
steady trend like if you look at

295
00:10:52,150 --> 00:10:50,480
spending say on faculty salaries

296
00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:52,160
versus spending on administrative

297
00:10:55,990 --> 00:10:54,480
salaries across universities in the west

298
00:10:58,069 --> 00:10:56,000
broadly speaking but certainly in north

299
00:11:00,310 --> 00:10:58,079
america the amount spent on

300
00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:00,320
administration just skyrocketed upward

301
00:11:04,069 --> 00:11:02,160
whereas the amount spent on faculty

302
00:11:05,030 --> 00:11:04,079
pretty much stayed constant

303
00:11:07,990 --> 00:11:05,040
and so

304
00:11:09,990 --> 00:11:08,000
why well it was because the faculty just

305
00:11:10,710 --> 00:11:10,000
retreated continually every time they

306
00:11:14,949 --> 00:11:10,720
were

307
00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:14,959
challenged to say no and so i objected

308
00:11:19,269 --> 00:11:17,200
repeatedly in faculty meetings whenever

309
00:11:21,190 --> 00:11:19,279
that happened and said well why don't we

310
00:11:23,509 --> 00:11:21,200
just say no they want to increase our

311
00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:23,519
seminar size you know like double it

312
00:11:27,590 --> 00:11:25,920
let's say in for third years that's not

313
00:11:29,110 --> 00:11:27,600
a seminar anymore once you get to a

314
00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:29,120
certain point

315
00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:31,360
we just say no we're not doing that

316
00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:33,920
why don't we just say no we won't do

317
00:11:36,630 --> 00:11:34,800
that

318
00:11:38,870 --> 00:11:36,640
well then they won't give us what we

319
00:11:40,310 --> 00:11:38,880
want well they don't give you what you

320
00:11:42,470 --> 00:11:40,320
want anyways

321
00:11:45,269 --> 00:11:42,480
so like what's to lose

322
00:11:46,630 --> 00:11:45,279
and but but so it was a thousand tiny

323
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:46,640
retreats and then

324
00:11:50,629 --> 00:11:48,480
what happened after that was that the

325
00:11:52,069 --> 00:11:50,639
administration having grown too

326
00:11:52,949 --> 00:11:52,079
top-heavy

327
00:11:55,269 --> 00:11:52,959
um

328
00:11:56,790 --> 00:11:55,279
was taken over by people within the

329
00:11:59,910 --> 00:11:56,800
administration let's say who had this

330
00:12:01,190 --> 00:11:59,920
dei philosophy and they couldn't say no

331
00:12:02,310 --> 00:12:01,200
to them

332
00:12:08,710 --> 00:12:02,320
so

333
00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:08,720
it was micro retreats continual cowardly

334
00:12:11,430 --> 00:12:10,639
micro retreats at the university level

335
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:11,440
now

336
00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:13,200
sorry to be so long-winded about this

337
00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:15,200
but there was something even more brutal

338
00:12:19,269 --> 00:12:16,560
underneath all that

339
00:12:20,949 --> 00:12:19,279
philosophically which i'm trying to lay

340
00:12:23,509 --> 00:12:20,959
out in the new book that i'm writing

341
00:12:25,509 --> 00:12:23,519
which is this post-modern problem and

342
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:25,519
the postmodern problem really emerged in

343
00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:28,079
the 1960s with the simultaneously

344
00:12:31,509 --> 00:12:30,160
simultaneous realization across a number

345
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:31,519
of disciplines

346
00:12:36,870 --> 00:12:33,760
that there's almost an infinite number

347
00:12:38,550 --> 00:12:36,880
of ways of perceiving anything and i

348
00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:38,560
mean literally perceiving so when you

349
00:12:41,750 --> 00:12:40,160
look at the world you see these things

350
00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:41,760
you think are objects and they're sort

351
00:12:46,629 --> 00:12:44,320
of self-evident but where an object

352
00:12:49,829 --> 00:12:46,639
begins and where it ends is much more

353
00:12:51,509 --> 00:12:49,839
difficult to compute than any one ever

354
00:12:52,629 --> 00:12:51,519
realized which is partly why we don't

355
00:12:54,389 --> 00:12:52,639
have

356
00:12:56,069 --> 00:12:54,399
you know robots wandering around doing

357
00:12:58,710 --> 00:12:56,079
things like dishwashing which turns out

358
00:13:01,509 --> 00:12:58,720
to be insanely complex and it also

359
00:13:04,150 --> 00:13:01,519
emerged in literary criticism with the

360
00:13:06,230 --> 00:13:04,160
realization that well just as there were

361
00:13:08,629 --> 00:13:06,240
an indefinite number of ways of looking

362
00:13:12,069 --> 00:13:08,639
at something so actually acquiring the

363
00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:12,079
objective facts of perception there was

364
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:14,720
an even more vaguely indefinable way of

365
00:13:21,269 --> 00:13:15,519
in

366
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:21,279
or a canon of texts let's say so how do

367
00:13:25,110 --> 00:13:23,680
we decide what's good and what's bad

368
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:25,120
literature what's deep and what's

369
00:13:30,150 --> 00:13:27,519
shallow what's valid and invalid and the

370
00:13:31,750 --> 00:13:30,160
answer is we don't know

371
00:13:33,829 --> 00:13:31,760
that's the answer

372
00:13:36,389 --> 00:13:33,839
but

373
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:36,399
premature answer was generated by social

374
00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:38,560
critics on the left and the premature

375
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:41,760
answer was well all our categorize all

376
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:43,839
our categories and the active

377
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:45,760
categorization itself

378
00:13:51,189 --> 00:13:49,040
serve the will to power

379
00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:51,199
and that's true to some degree because

380
00:13:55,910 --> 00:13:53,600
we're all totalitarian and and

381
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:55,920
authoritarian and narcissistic to some

382
00:14:00,310 --> 00:13:58,079
degree we're also we also use deception

383
00:14:02,629 --> 00:14:00,320
to get what we want so we can corrupt

384
00:14:04,629 --> 00:14:02,639
our category structure but there's a

385
00:14:07,269 --> 00:14:04,639
huge difference between

386
00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:07,279
saying well we don't know the answer

387
00:14:11,910 --> 00:14:09,920
but power may play a role

388
00:14:13,509 --> 00:14:11,920
and saying the answer is that power

389
00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:13,519
always plays a role and that's all there

390
00:14:16,310 --> 00:14:14,560
is

391
00:14:18,470 --> 00:14:16,320
and that's what's happened on the left

392
00:14:20,629 --> 00:14:18,480
in the post-modern field and that sort

393
00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:20,639
of fit in nicely with the you know the

394
00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:23,120
idea that capitalism was essentially

395
00:14:27,829 --> 00:14:25,360
uh oppressive and that the patriarchal

396
00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:27,839
structure is essentially oppressive etc

397
00:14:34,949 --> 00:14:30,880
etc and it's it's it's a it's an

398
00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:34,959
unbelievably corrosive and terrible

399
00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:36,639
philosophy

400
00:14:40,069 --> 00:14:37,440
so

401
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:40,079
well the left went too far there to

402
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:42,320
claim that nothing but the will to power

403
00:14:46,069 --> 00:14:44,320
governs categorization

404
00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:46,079
and the act of categorization which is

405
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:48,079
basically consciousness itself that act

406
00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:50,800
of categorization that you could not

407
00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:53,040
possibly formulate a more

408
00:14:56,069 --> 00:14:54,240
cynical

409
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:56,079
malevolent and

410
00:15:02,470 --> 00:14:59,440
careless destructive philosophy

411
00:15:04,710 --> 00:15:03,750
see what makes

412
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:04,720
this

413
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:06,560
so you interpreted the question as a as

414
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:08,240
a time question temporal one when does

415
00:15:11,269 --> 00:15:10,000
the left go too far and i guess that's

416
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:11,279
within

417
00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:15,920
and for me what you also laid out

418
00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:17,600
ideologically what it is that they

419
00:15:21,829 --> 00:15:19,279
believe that makes them go too far i

420
00:15:23,910 --> 00:15:21,839
don't like to use the word ideological

421
00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:23,920
we don't have to get into the

422
00:15:27,829 --> 00:15:25,600
into the reasons there but for the sake

423
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:27,839
of speaking right now just use that word

424
00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:29,600
why when do they go too far

425
00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:31,279
ideologically see some of the people i

426
00:15:34,629 --> 00:15:33,040
spoke to said the left goes too far when

427
00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:34,639
it comes to violence well there's

428
00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:36,000
something that leads to the violence

429
00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:38,720
some idea

430
00:15:41,829 --> 00:15:40,480
and you also mentioned

431
00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:41,839
power right that also doesn't

432
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:44,240
distinguish the left going too far from

433
00:15:48,550 --> 00:15:46,560
the right going too far right

434
00:15:50,710 --> 00:15:48,560
so and and it's not a really good answer

435
00:15:52,389 --> 00:15:50,720
because sometimes we think

436
00:15:54,790 --> 00:15:52,399
sometimes we think that violence is

437
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:54,800
justified like in self-defense and so

438
00:15:57,670 --> 00:15:56,880
often political violence

439
00:16:00,629 --> 00:15:57,680
is

440
00:16:02,949 --> 00:16:00,639
uh what would you say rationalized and

441
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:02,959
sometimes perhaps even functions as

442
00:16:06,790 --> 00:16:05,040
self-defense and sometimes it's

443
00:16:08,710 --> 00:16:06,800
rebellion against

444
00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:08,720
true oppression

445
00:16:11,749 --> 00:16:10,079
in which case

446
00:16:12,710 --> 00:16:11,759
people on the left and the right might

447
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:12,720
regard

448
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:15,040
violence not only as necessary but

449
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:17,120
actually morally demanded right

450
00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:18,959
ethically demanded so

451
00:16:23,110 --> 00:16:21,199
the the mere use of violence and then of

452
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:23,120
course what constitutes violence that's

453
00:16:27,749 --> 00:16:25,440
the next problem without or

454
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:27,759
it's it's it's too shallow an argument

455
00:16:31,509 --> 00:16:29,920
to really get to the core of things

456
00:16:32,550 --> 00:16:31,519
and one has to be extremely careful

457
00:16:34,389 --> 00:16:32,560
about what

458
00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:34,399
counts as self-defense especially

459
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:37,920
preemptive self-defense which is behind

460
00:16:41,430 --> 00:16:39,199
much of what they do they'll say that

461
00:16:43,590 --> 00:16:41,440
well we have to take action now against

462
00:16:45,189 --> 00:16:43,600
the right or the extreme right which

463
00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:45,199
pretty much everyone who is on the right

464
00:16:49,749 --> 00:16:46,880
they would classify as being a part of

465
00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:49,759
the alt right or alt light yeah well

466
00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:51,440
that's that's another part yeah that's

467
00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:52,880
another yeah

468
00:16:57,189 --> 00:16:54,560
exactly well that's another part of this

469
00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:57,199
tit for tat process that we see i think

470
00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:59,279
perhaps accelerating it particularly in

471
00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:00,959
the united states with the

472
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:02,639
return of trump let's say to the

473
00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:04,799
political arena there's a tremendous

474
00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:07,280
amount of distrust growing distrust on

475
00:17:10,789 --> 00:17:09,280
both sides of the political spectrum

476
00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:10,799
driven

477
00:17:17,189 --> 00:17:15,120
certainly by the extreme views of a

478
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:17,199
minority on both sides

479
00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:19,679
laying out the exact causal process is

480
00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:22,400
extremely difficult because these things

481
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:24,240
they're not unidirectional

482
00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:26,720
unidirectionally causal right they're

483
00:17:32,789 --> 00:17:29,600
they they they cause each causes the

484
00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:32,799
other you know i poke you you poke me i

485
00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:34,880
slap you you slap me a little harder i

486
00:17:39,029 --> 00:17:37,360
punch you you punch me you know and and

487
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:39,039
then we we have knives and we're at each

488
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:40,960
other's throats and we say well you know

489
00:17:45,029 --> 00:17:42,640
who started it well maybe you said

490
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:45,039
something insulting before i poked you

491
00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:47,039
you know who but

492
00:17:52,310 --> 00:17:49,520
but the one of the things of interest

493
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:52,320
when observing something like that is

494
00:17:57,830 --> 00:17:55,200
the causal process that's involved in

495
00:18:00,630 --> 00:17:57,840
the tit for tat return and i've been

496
00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:00,640
thinking about that a lot because i'm

497
00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:02,400
for a whole variety of reasons that i

498
00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:04,880
can't go into but jonathan height also

499
00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:06,480
just wrote an article

500
00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:07,760
about

501
00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:09,600
positive feedback loop processes

502
00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:11,679
operating at a very rapid scale on

503
00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:14,000
facebook and twitter and exacerbating

504
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:16,000
this political

505
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:18,000
positive feedback loop right runaway

506
00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:20,400
positive feedback loop you know you know

507
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:22,320
if you if you're doing any recording and

508
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:24,080
you bring your microphone too close to

509
00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:25,840
the speaker that

510
00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:27,200
that you're speaking through you'll get

511
00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:29,120
this howl of feedback and that can

512
00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:31,120
destroy the whole system the whole

513
00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:32,640
recording system

514
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:33,760
um

515
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:35,120
and that's a good example of how a

516
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:36,799
positive feedback loop can get out of

517
00:18:40,310 --> 00:18:37,840
control

518
00:18:42,789 --> 00:18:40,320
and that's the real enemy

519
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:42,799
like if we're thinking meta-politically

520
00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:45,200
the real enemy is

521
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:47,679
the possibility that

522
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:50,320
mutual distrust on both sides will

523
00:18:55,430 --> 00:18:51,840
accelerate

524
00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:55,440
uh our descent into a kind of melee

525
00:18:59,990 --> 00:18:57,440
and

526
00:19:02,230 --> 00:19:00,000
so the enemy isn't necessarily the

527
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:02,240
catastrophic ideology of the left or the

528
00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:03,760
right but

529
00:19:07,669 --> 00:19:05,520
the manner in which

530
00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:07,679
extreme views

531
00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:08,640
can

532
00:19:13,029 --> 00:19:10,960
foster a spiral of violence that none of

533
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:13,039
us know how to stop

534
00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:14,960
and it's stupid little things can

535
00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:16,559
trigger like one of my friends today

536
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:17,760
sent me this

537
00:19:23,750 --> 00:19:19,760
article showing that i think it was in

538
00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:23,760
the virginia governor's race that

539
00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:24,880
four

540
00:19:27,590 --> 00:19:26,000
people

541
00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:27,600
used ticky

542
00:19:31,909 --> 00:19:30,320
lanterns and they were

543
00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:31,919
hypothetically marching in support of

544
00:19:35,669 --> 00:19:34,000
the republican candidate and so they

545
00:19:37,830 --> 00:19:35,679
were posing as members of the

546
00:19:39,750 --> 00:19:37,840
conspiratorial alt-right but two of them

547
00:19:41,510 --> 00:19:39,760
were actually democrat operatives

548
00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:41,520
political operatives trying to discredit

549
00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:43,440
the republican campaign

550
00:19:47,029 --> 00:19:45,360
and that's so dangerous because they're

551
00:19:49,350 --> 00:19:47,039
basically acting out the proposition

552
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:49,360
that it's nazis you know for all intents

553
00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:51,360
and purposes fascists that are

554
00:19:54,310 --> 00:19:53,360
supporting the republicans and

555
00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:54,320
to

556
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:56,720
that's such a terrible lie right it's

557
00:20:02,070 --> 00:19:59,039
it's such a terrible lie to

558
00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:02,080
to act that out to demonize your your

559
00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:03,760
fellow citizens that way it's

560
00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:05,760
unbelievably dangerous and

561
00:20:09,270 --> 00:20:07,600
we got to stop doing things like that

562
00:20:11,190 --> 00:20:09,280
you know and

563
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:11,200
all of us have to stop doing things like

564
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:13,039
that

565
00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:22,000
well it's difficult to say what's at the

566
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:24,240
bottom but one of the predominant

567
00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:26,640
factors may be personalized

568
00:20:31,510 --> 00:20:29,200
personal lies not personalized

569
00:20:34,870 --> 00:20:31,520
yes i believe that i i really do believe

570
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:34,880
why why do you say that

571
00:20:37,350 --> 00:20:35,760
right

572
00:20:40,789 --> 00:20:37,360
see if you watch

573
00:20:42,789 --> 00:20:40,799
the film toward the

574
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:42,799
fourth section i believe i split it up

575
00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:44,559
into chapters and in the fourth section

576
00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:46,720
it becomes much more philosophical which

577
00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:48,080
was one of the reasons why i started it

578
00:20:51,029 --> 00:20:49,600
because i happen to like puzzles and

579
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:51,039
philosophy it's one of the reasons i

580
00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:53,840
went into math i like abstract thinking

581
00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:56,640
so i tried to make a case about lies and

582
00:21:00,549 --> 00:20:58,880
how lies spread now there's one obvious

583
00:21:01,990 --> 00:21:00,559
route to take that with memes so you

584
00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:02,000
talk about memes and how memes spread so

585
00:21:05,669 --> 00:21:03,039
you don't want to pollute that because

586
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:05,679
that comes back to affect you if you

587
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:07,840
care about yourself first of all so

588
00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:09,360
maybe you shouldn't care about yourself

589
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:10,480
so much

590
00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:12,720
as for

591
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:14,240
see something i was exploring and i'm

592
00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:16,480
not quite sure is it possible to tell a

593
00:21:20,789 --> 00:21:18,960
lie without lying to yourself that seems

594
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:20,799
on the face of it yes all right well i

595
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:23,360
don't think so well

596
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:26,720
it seems like psychological evidence

597
00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:28,480
well there's psychological evidence

598
00:21:32,230 --> 00:21:30,640
though that you you can't well here

599
00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:32,240
let's let's dig into that a little bit

600
00:21:36,149 --> 00:21:34,480
so you tell a lie to yourself and you

601
00:21:38,149 --> 00:21:36,159
think well i know the difference it's

602
00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:38,159
like well

603
00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:39,840
don't be so sure about that so here's

604
00:21:43,909 --> 00:21:41,760
one experiment that and that's an

605
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:43,919
example so imagine that i give a group

606
00:21:48,310 --> 00:21:46,640
of people a

607
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:48,320
scale that measures their political

608
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,400
belief about a certain issue

609
00:21:54,070 --> 00:21:52,320
maybe the reality of climate change or

610
00:21:55,990 --> 00:21:54,080
or the unreality of climate change for

611
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:56,000
that matter it doesn't matter and then i

612
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:58,320
get those same people to write an essay

613
00:22:03,909 --> 00:22:00,720
of 500 words

614
00:22:05,270 --> 00:22:03,919
outlining the contrary position

615
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:05,280
and they know they're just doing it

616
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:07,039
because it's part of the experiment but

617
00:22:09,909 --> 00:22:08,400
then they come back a week later and i

618
00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:09,919
give them the same political belief

619
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:10,880
scale

620
00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:12,960
and what's happened is their beliefs

621
00:22:18,310 --> 00:22:15,360
will have shifted substantially towards

622
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:18,320
the side that they argued for

623
00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:21,280
okay so why well first of all

624
00:22:25,669 --> 00:22:23,440
a lot of your so-called beliefs are

625
00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:25,679
really low resolution

626
00:22:29,990 --> 00:22:27,840
they're just heuristics they're like

627
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:30,000
single pixel images you haven't thought

628
00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:32,880
it through very carefully imagine maybe

629
00:22:35,590 --> 00:22:34,320
you know more than the average person

630
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:35,600
because of your background but imagine

631
00:22:38,950 --> 00:22:37,200
how much you know about how a helicopter

632
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:38,960
works you know do you know what a

633
00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:42,000
helicopter is yes no you don't if you

634
00:22:44,950 --> 00:22:43,360
had to draw one it would look like a

635
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:44,960
four-year-old druid

636
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:46,640
you know you know what it you can

637
00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:48,880
identify the shape in two dimensions you

638
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:50,960
know it flies that's about it you

639
00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:52,880
couldn't fix one you certainly couldn't

640
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:55,120
build one so in a real sense you don't

641
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:57,360
know anything about a helicopter except

642
00:23:02,310 --> 00:22:59,440
what you need as someone who's never

643
00:23:03,909 --> 00:23:02,320
around helicopters to know and and most

644
00:23:05,669 --> 00:23:03,919
things are way more complicated than

645
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:05,679
helicopters even though they're plenty

646
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:08,640
complicated and so you think that you

647
00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:10,720
know something when you think you know

648
00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:13,360
it but then you detail out a counter

649
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:15,440
argument and it turns out that you've

650
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:17,200
provided more detail in the counter

651
00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:18,960
argument that you had in your argument

652
00:23:22,549 --> 00:23:20,640
to begin with

653
00:23:24,789 --> 00:23:22,559
so that shifts your cognition towards

654
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:24,799
what you argued for

655
00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:26,320
well if you think that doesn't happen to

656
00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:28,320
you when you're lying well you're you

657
00:23:33,029 --> 00:23:30,559
don't know anything about how you work

658
00:23:35,830 --> 00:23:33,039
and then the other thing is well

659
00:23:37,990 --> 00:23:35,840
virtually no one thinks that lying is

660
00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:38,000
acceptable morally when it comes right

661
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:39,600
down to it there might be specific

662
00:23:44,390 --> 00:23:42,400
exceptions to that now and then and so

663
00:23:46,549 --> 00:23:44,400
if you lie you're going to tilt what you

664
00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:46,559
believe towards the lie because that

665
00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:47,360
will

666
00:23:51,029 --> 00:23:48,640
lighten the

667
00:23:53,110 --> 00:23:51,039
ethical load that you carry it'll reduce

668
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:53,120
cognitive dissonance that's one way of

669
00:23:56,470 --> 00:23:54,320
terming it

670
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:56,480
and so and then you can't keep track of

671
00:24:00,149 --> 00:23:58,559
your lies and so that's a big problem

672
00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:00,159
and they tangle up your thoughts and

673
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:01,760
then also let's say a whole bunch of

674
00:24:09,190 --> 00:24:04,480
people really like your lie

675
00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:09,200
well then you know most of us all of us

676
00:24:13,190 --> 00:24:11,200
thrive on attention

677
00:24:14,549 --> 00:24:13,200
i mean children will misbehave to get

678
00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:14,559
attention even if it's negative

679
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:16,240
attention if they can't get it any other

680
00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:17,520
way

681
00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:18,640
and so

682
00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:20,960
you lie and you you put it out on

683
00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:22,960
twitter and you know ten thousand people

684
00:24:25,669 --> 00:24:24,480
like it and then you think well wait a

685
00:24:27,269 --> 00:24:25,679
sec

686
00:24:29,110 --> 00:24:27,279
probably i believe that because look at

687
00:24:30,549 --> 00:24:29,120
how positively it was received and some

688
00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:30,559
of that's actually

689
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:32,960
socially positive right i mean if you

690
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:34,799
say something a lot of people respond to

691
00:24:38,390 --> 00:24:36,400
it positively

692
00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:38,400
that might be a good reason for you to

693
00:24:42,549 --> 00:24:40,720
think that way a bit more right because

694
00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:42,559
the fact that you want social approval

695
00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:44,720
isn't only an index of your cowardice

696
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:47,279
it's also an index of your desire to be

697
00:24:51,269 --> 00:24:48,880
productive and to fit in and to have

698
00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:51,279
people like you and all of that

699
00:24:53,990 --> 00:24:52,720
and so

700
00:24:56,390 --> 00:24:54,000
lies

701
00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:56,400
they just warp things to a tremendous

702
00:24:59,590 --> 00:24:57,760
degree and if you think you're smart

703
00:25:03,990 --> 00:24:59,600
enough to keep your lies separate from

704
00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:04,000
your truth and then one final issue is

705
00:25:09,190 --> 00:25:07,520
well let's say you lie 20 of the time

706
00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:09,200
well doesn't that mean that you're

707
00:25:14,310 --> 00:25:13,120
practicing to become 20 percent a liar

708
00:25:15,669 --> 00:25:14,320
and don't you think you're getting

709
00:25:18,549 --> 00:25:15,679
better at that

710
00:25:21,029 --> 00:25:18,559
you you become what you practice

711
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:21,039
and then don't you think that'll

712
00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:22,559
interfere with your ability to

713
00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:24,320
distinguish between what you think and

714
00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:26,480
what you don't think first of all and

715
00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:28,400
also your ability to tell the difference

716
00:25:32,310 --> 00:25:30,960
between truth and falsehood

717
00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:32,320
and so and don't you think it'll make

718
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:34,080
you cynical about the nature of

719
00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:36,480
humankind to observe yourself lying

720
00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:37,600
you're certainly going to think other

721
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:40,080
people do it at least as much as you and

722
00:25:42,950 --> 00:25:41,679
if they're bad people they do it way

723
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:42,960
more

724
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:45,520
it's just a rat's nest and you know i

725
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:47,679
became convinced a long time ago looking

726
00:25:52,070 --> 00:25:50,080
at the totalitarian problem on the left

727
00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:52,080
and the right that the most effective

728
00:25:56,149 --> 00:25:54,000
way to deal with this fundamentally was

729
00:25:59,269 --> 00:25:56,159
psychological and that what we need to

730
00:26:00,950 --> 00:25:59,279
do all of us is to stop lying each of us

731
00:26:03,350 --> 00:26:00,960
in our own lives

732
00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:03,360
that's the solution we have to stop and

733
00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:04,960
that partly that's because we're so damn

734
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:07,200
powerful now i mean how many people have

735
00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:14,149
they're in terms of views now obviously

736
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:15,120
that's a

737
00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:17,279
there are multiple views for one

738
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:18,240
video

739
00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:20,480
millions almost seven or so seven or

740
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:22,480
eight million

741
00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:26,000
okay so how powerful might your lies be

742
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:27,760
right

743
00:26:32,870 --> 00:26:31,760
people is connected to a thousand other

744
00:26:33,909 --> 00:26:32,880
people

745
00:26:35,909 --> 00:26:33,919
so

746
00:26:39,269 --> 00:26:35,919
that's a billion people that you're two

747
00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:39,279
steps away from at least

748
00:26:43,029 --> 00:26:41,120
so you said sorry you said seven million

749
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:43,039
people so it's seven billion people you

750
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:44,640
know i mean obviously those circles are

751
00:26:52,789 --> 00:26:51,430
yeah what i would object to is that he

752
00:26:54,789 --> 00:26:52,799
said most people would agree that

753
00:26:56,710 --> 00:26:54,799
telling lies

754
00:26:58,630 --> 00:26:56,720
is deleterious in some manner now i'd

755
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:58,640
say that they say that they profess it

756
00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:00,960
but they don't truly believe it and the

757
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:03,360
reason that may in fact be what unifies

758
00:27:10,149 --> 00:27:06,240
the extremes

759
00:27:11,830 --> 00:27:10,159
i'll give you i'll give you an example

760
00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:11,840
sure if you ask someone

761
00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:13,520
i think that if you were to ask someone

762
00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:16,240
is it okay to lie for the greater good

763
00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:17,440
they would say

764
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:18,880
well the majority of those people on the

765
00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:21,600
extremes would say yes and then i wonder

766
00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:23,760
well hmm perhaps that's an indication

767
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:25,520
that you're on the extreme perhaps if

768
00:27:29,830 --> 00:27:27,840
you have a world view i talk about this

769
00:27:32,389 --> 00:27:29,840
concept called belton that's a good idea

770
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:32,399
man yeah perhaps if you have a veltan

771
00:27:36,389 --> 00:27:35,679
xiaomi that says that there is no

772
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:36,399
that

773
00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:38,880
somehow there is no greater somehow you

774
00:27:41,830 --> 00:27:40,080
can't tell

775
00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:41,840
a lie and before the greater good

776
00:27:46,470 --> 00:27:44,720
because the truth and the good are tied

777
00:27:48,710 --> 00:27:46,480
yeah i think that's right so i think

778
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:48,720
that's a really smart idea the idea that

779
00:27:55,990 --> 00:27:51,520
if you have a belief system politically

780
00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:56,000
that requires any lies to support

781
00:27:59,430 --> 00:27:57,600
then that's an indication that you've

782
00:28:01,350 --> 00:27:59,440
gone too far i think that's a good rule

783
00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:01,360
of thumb

784
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:03,200
all right

785
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:06,320
and what else is as you mentioned it's

786
00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:08,640
pestiferous because it's poisonous is

787
00:28:12,789 --> 00:28:09,520
that

788
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:12,799
they they'll say power is one of the

789
00:28:16,470 --> 00:28:14,080
well they'll say power is the

790
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:16,480
predominant perhaps only vector that

791
00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:18,480
underlies our social interactions and

792
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:21,279
even truth claims and so on well

793
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:23,360
the issue with the issue with that is

794
00:28:28,789 --> 00:28:27,120
that it's partly true and the reason is

795
00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:28,799
see this cup here

796
00:28:33,190 --> 00:28:31,279
this cup comprises many elements there's

797
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:33,200
an element of power in this cup there's

798
00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:34,720
an element of art as well by the way

799
00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:36,240
there's an element of physics you can

800
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:37,840
look at it mathematically you can look

801
00:28:40,789 --> 00:28:39,440
at it through an engineering lens you

802
00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:40,799
can look at it through an architectural

803
00:28:45,269 --> 00:28:42,799
lens yeah well the power is the power in

804
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:45,279
the cup is for example that you own it

805
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:48,240
it's your cup right and so it's embedded

806
00:28:53,909 --> 00:28:50,960
within a hierarchy now the quest so your

807
00:28:56,789 --> 00:28:53,919
claim is exactly right um but there's a

808
00:28:59,430 --> 00:28:56,799
huge difference between claiming that

809
00:29:02,149 --> 00:28:59,440
it's useful to investigate the role that

810
00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:02,159
arbitrary expression of power plays in

811
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:04,240
conceptual systems which is a perfectly

812
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:06,640
reasonable thing to say and

813
00:29:11,830 --> 00:29:09,200
the premature answer that the

814
00:29:13,909 --> 00:29:11,840
solution to the problem of perception is

815
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:13,919
will to power and nothing else and so

816
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:15,600
i've been talking to some evolutionary

817
00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:17,520
biologists about that i talked to robert

818
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:20,000
trivers this week he's getting old and

819
00:29:25,110 --> 00:29:22,640
it was interesting to talk to him but

820
00:29:27,269 --> 00:29:25,120
we talked about psychopaths

821
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:27,279
okay so let let's let's wander down that

822
00:29:31,110 --> 00:29:28,960
path just for a minute so imagine that

823
00:29:33,590 --> 00:29:31,120
the patriarchal structure is predicated

824
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:33,600
on nothing but power

825
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:35,440
okay and then imagine that psychopaths

826
00:29:40,549 --> 00:29:38,480
are particularly cunning uses of power

827
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:40,559
users of power

828
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:42,320
okay so then to the degree that the

829
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:44,320
social system is an expression of power

830
00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:46,480
you'd expect psychopaths to be radically

831
00:29:49,909 --> 00:29:48,320
successful

832
00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:49,919
but they

833
00:29:56,470 --> 00:29:53,760
or in in human populations

834
00:29:58,710 --> 00:29:56,480
well they're also they also never exceed

835
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:58,720
they their numbers vary between one and

836
00:30:02,389 --> 00:30:00,559
five percent in the population never

837
00:30:04,630 --> 00:30:02,399
gets higher than three is really the

838
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,640
upper limit but it can get up to five

839
00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:06,960
so they're not that successful because

840
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:13,110
so

841
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:14,080
it

842
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:16,000
just that fact alone

843
00:30:19,190 --> 00:30:17,440
indicates that there's something wrong

844
00:30:20,710 --> 00:30:19,200
with the power claim

845
00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:20,720
now you might say well psychopaths

846
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:22,720
aren't very good at utilizing power it's

847
00:30:26,710 --> 00:30:24,480
like no no wait a minute

848
00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:26,720
actually psychopaths are better at

849
00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:29,760
utilizing pure power stripped completely

850
00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:32,720
of empathy than anyone else

851
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:35,039
by definition

852
00:30:40,950 --> 00:30:37,440
so they are literally the

853
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:40,960
power users who lack compassion

854
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:41,840
so

855
00:30:45,909 --> 00:30:44,000
why aren't they radically successful in

856
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:45,919
human populations and the answer to that

857
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:48,320
is well because our hierarchies are not

858
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:50,720
fundamentally built on power

859
00:30:54,549 --> 00:30:52,640
and our concepts and

860
00:30:57,110 --> 00:30:54,559
and perceptions aren't fundamentally a

861
00:30:58,870 --> 00:30:57,120
consequence of power or it's misused now

862
00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:58,880
that doesn't mean that

863
00:31:02,710 --> 00:31:00,640
our perceptions and our social

864
00:31:04,230 --> 00:31:02,720
structures can't be and our intimate

865
00:31:06,509 --> 00:31:04,240
relationships our relationships with

866
00:31:08,549 --> 00:31:06,519
ourselves for that matter can't become

867
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:08,559
contaminated by

868
00:31:13,509 --> 00:31:11,120
the excess desire for power

869
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:13,519
and by the deceit that might be employed

870
00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:16,000
let's say in its service that obviously

871
00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:17,840
that happens and we have to keep our

872
00:31:23,509 --> 00:31:21,360
eyes open all the time about that

873
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:23,519
but the central claim is

874
00:31:27,909 --> 00:31:25,360
not only is it

875
00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:27,919
unbelievably cynical and destructive and

876
00:31:31,909 --> 00:31:30,080
also extremely helpful if you want to

877
00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:31,919
demonize your enemies you know because

878
00:31:35,190 --> 00:31:34,240
if i believe that the entire basis of

879
00:31:37,990 --> 00:31:35,200
your

880
00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:38,000
perceptual structure is will to power

881
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:40,000
and so is mine let's say

882
00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:42,720
well i don't if you don't

883
00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:45,200
believe the same things i do so if

884
00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:47,279
you're trying to elevate yourself in a

885
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:48,720
different hierarchy or you're trying to

886
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:51,360
produce a different hierarchy altogether

887
00:31:57,750 --> 00:31:55,279
we have nothing in common except

888
00:31:59,590 --> 00:31:57,760
our enmity because there's no ground

889
00:32:01,590 --> 00:31:59,600
outside what you're striving for and

890
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:01,600
what i'm striving for selfishly where we

891
00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:04,799
can meet as reasonable people and have a

892
00:32:09,350 --> 00:32:07,600
you know soul-to-soul discussion that's

893
00:32:11,590 --> 00:32:09,360
not even technically possible within

894
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:11,600
that freight within that scheme

895
00:32:15,269 --> 00:32:13,360
and so that means that if you and i are

896
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:15,279
enemies well what am i supposed to do

897
00:32:19,029 --> 00:32:16,480
with you

898
00:32:21,269 --> 00:32:19,039
because all you are is will to power

899
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:21,279
i can't trust you i can't reason with

900
00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:23,279
you reason doesn't even exist you know

901
00:32:25,990 --> 00:32:24,880
you see echoes of that in the claims

902
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:26,000
that

903
00:32:30,149 --> 00:32:28,080
rational discussion or something like

904
00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:30,159
that is you know

905
00:32:33,830 --> 00:32:31,840
especially the dialectical forms is

906
00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:33,840
somehow a construction of white

907
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:35,760
supremacy

908
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:37,360
you know implicit in our social

909
00:32:39,909 --> 00:32:38,480
structures

910
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:39,919
it's so

911
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:44,399
idea that our virtues first of all that

912
00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:46,080
there aren't any virtues but even if

913
00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:48,799
there are they're only derivable from

914
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:51,440
power hierarchy structures god that's so

915
00:32:57,509 --> 00:32:54,880
cynical and so destructive and so

916
00:33:00,310 --> 00:32:57,519
dangerous and imagine just living with

917
00:33:01,750 --> 00:33:00,320
that notion that that's what motivates

918
00:33:05,350 --> 00:33:01,760
everyone is nothing but like an

919
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:05,360
untrammeled will to authoritarian power

920
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:06,320
god

921
00:33:13,669 --> 00:33:11,509
yeah you mentioned the word use multiple

922
00:33:15,509 --> 00:33:13,679
times and that is one of the reasons why

923
00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:15,519
i try to analyze it more philosophically

924
00:33:17,990 --> 00:33:16,960
toward the end because i don't think

925
00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:18,000
that this is

926
00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:19,360
see some people would say what we need

927
00:33:22,870 --> 00:33:20,640
is dialogue

928
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:22,880
you'll see you'll hear this many of the

929
00:33:26,149 --> 00:33:24,240
times it would come from people who are

930
00:33:27,269 --> 00:33:26,159
on the center center right center left

931
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:27,279
they'll say we just need to speak to

932
00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:29,120
each other more but i think what comes

933
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:31,600
before what comes prior to speaking is

934
00:33:36,830 --> 00:33:33,360
we need to value the same

935
00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:39,029
direction yeah well that's again what

936
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:40,960
this new book that i'm writing is about

937
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:43,600
you know because there has to be a

938
00:33:49,269 --> 00:33:46,320
there has to be an initial framework as

939
00:33:51,830 --> 00:33:49,279
you said that makes even the possibility

940
00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:51,840
of dialogue a reality so it's got to be

941
00:33:54,789 --> 00:33:53,200
something look look what we're doing

942
00:33:56,549 --> 00:33:54,799
right now you and me hopefully this is

943
00:33:58,710 --> 00:33:56,559
what we're doing right he's like you

944
00:34:00,389 --> 00:33:58,720
know some things and and i know yeah

945
00:34:02,230 --> 00:34:00,399
that's right man hopefully and let's

946
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:02,240
bloody well pray that we are smart

947
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:03,840
enough and wise enough and careful

948
00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:07,919
enough to do it right so it's not easy

949
00:34:12,389 --> 00:34:10,720
you you come to this discussion

950
00:34:14,069 --> 00:34:12,399
thinking maybe you don't know everything

951
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:14,079
and that i might have something to say

952
00:34:17,990 --> 00:34:15,839
that would be useful and interesting to

953
00:34:19,589 --> 00:34:18,000
you that that might actually be crucial

954
00:34:21,909 --> 00:34:19,599
to you and i come to this dialogue

955
00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:21,919
hoping for the same from you right so

956
00:34:25,750 --> 00:34:23,839
first of all we both come

957
00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:25,760
to the degree we're doing this properly

958
00:34:30,790 --> 00:34:28,720
in an attitude of humility

959
00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:30,800
i want to hear from you

960
00:34:34,629 --> 00:34:32,320
and you know i tend to be kind of

961
00:34:36,389 --> 00:34:34,639
dominant in conversations and i talk too

962
00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:36,399
much and so that probably interferes

963
00:34:39,829 --> 00:34:37,919
with it to some degree but i really do

964
00:34:42,069 --> 00:34:39,839
try to listen and i really do hope that

965
00:34:44,629 --> 00:34:42,079
when i talk to someone that's partly why

966
00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:44,639
i do the podcast is that they'll tell me

967
00:34:48,710 --> 00:34:46,720
something that someone is stupid and

968
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:48,720
potentially malevolent as me might

969
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:51,200
really need to know and so if i listen

970
00:34:54,950 --> 00:34:53,280
real carefully

971
00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:54,960
maybe they won't even know what it is

972
00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:56,560
that i need to know that they know but

973
00:34:59,910 --> 00:34:58,240
if i listen very carefully i kind of

974
00:35:02,630 --> 00:34:59,920
call it out of them and then i can use

975
00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:02,640
that information to correct myself so i

976
00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:04,240
don't do something catastrophically

977
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:06,240
stupid in the future and hurt myself and

978
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:07,680
the people i love

979
00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:09,599
and so you have to have this presumption

980
00:35:13,670 --> 00:35:10,320
of

981
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:13,680
and

982
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:16,480
that the belief that the person across

983
00:35:19,829 --> 00:35:18,800
from you particularly if they differ

984
00:35:21,349 --> 00:35:19,839
from you

985
00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:21,359
might have something useful to say

986
00:35:24,710 --> 00:35:23,040
because they're different from you they

987
00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:24,720
know things that aren't that you don't

988
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:26,400
know so isn't it so good that they're

989
00:35:29,670 --> 00:35:28,240
different and then you have to believe

990
00:35:32,390 --> 00:35:29,680
that

991
00:35:34,470 --> 00:35:32,400
men of good will exist let's say and

992
00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:34,480
that they can exchange information

993
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:36,960
that's mutually corrective and both can

994
00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:38,160
walk away

995
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:39,599
better

996
00:35:42,950 --> 00:35:41,200
and that's something like faith it's

997
00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:42,960
faith well i think it's equivalent i

998
00:35:46,550 --> 00:35:44,880
think it's equivalent to in the

999
00:35:48,069 --> 00:35:46,560
christian sphere it's equivalent to the

1000
00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:48,079
faith in logos

1001
00:35:55,510 --> 00:35:51,359
it's it's the same thing

1002
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:55,520
and logos is a very complicated concept

1003
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:57,200
one of the reasons and i'm not quite

1004
00:36:01,030 --> 00:35:59,280
sure why this is the case but one of the

1005
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:01,040
reasons this

1006
00:36:05,589 --> 00:36:03,280
theories of everything podcast has taken

1007
00:36:08,470 --> 00:36:05,599
off the way that it has is partly

1008
00:36:10,390 --> 00:36:08,480
because i'm not averse to this

1009
00:36:12,390 --> 00:36:10,400
ambiguous contradictory thinking when it

1010
00:36:14,310 --> 00:36:12,400
comes to metaphysical issues like

1011
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:14,320
whether or not there exists a god and to

1012
00:36:19,349 --> 00:36:16,320
speak in terms of religious terms most

1013
00:36:21,109 --> 00:36:19,359
scientists are as you know and as i know

1014
00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:21,119
most scientists are

1015
00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:23,760
they find that to be anathema and i i

1016
00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:25,280
don't hey i'm going to talk to richard

1017
00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:28,320
dawkins oh well that's wonderful

1018
00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:29,680
yeah i saw your conversation with

1019
00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:31,920
lawrence krauss and i was well i have

1020
00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:33,520
yeah i did another one with harris too

1021
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:34,960
just a week and a half ago and it went

1022
00:36:39,829 --> 00:36:37,200
real well i figured out how to do to

1023
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:39,839
talk to sam better than i have before i

1024
00:36:43,750 --> 00:36:41,520
just asked mostly i just asked him

1025
00:36:45,510 --> 00:36:43,760
questions and that's really useful to

1026
00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:45,520
just to ask questions rather than

1027
00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:47,440
because i think i went sideways to some

1028
00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:49,440
degree in my discussions with sam which

1029
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:51,200
i don't usually do

1030
00:36:56,069 --> 00:36:54,000
i was trying to prove something sideways

1031
00:36:58,950 --> 00:36:56,079
well

1032
00:37:00,470 --> 00:36:58,960
like i said i was trying to prove

1033
00:37:01,910 --> 00:37:00,480
something instead of listening and

1034
00:37:03,670 --> 00:37:01,920
asking questions

1035
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:03,680
and i should it would have been better

1036
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:05,520
had i not tried to do that and just

1037
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:08,000
tried harder and harder to understand

1038
00:37:11,589 --> 00:37:10,079
what it was that he thought

1039
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:11,599
because one you know the more we talked

1040
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:14,480
the more we found like real major points

1041
00:37:19,030 --> 00:37:17,280
of of agreement you know like sam is

1042
00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:19,040
oriented

1043
00:37:23,829 --> 00:37:21,200
to a great degree he's very much

1044
00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:23,839
concerned about the human tendency for

1045
00:37:28,390 --> 00:37:26,800
atrocity and malevolence

1046
00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:28,400
that drives him

1047
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:30,880
that terror of that and that's i would

1048
00:37:34,310 --> 00:37:32,960
say that's my fundamental driver i hope

1049
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:34,320
it is at least

1050
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:36,240
and so that's something that really

1051
00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:39,200
unites us and he's hoping that he can

1052
00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:40,640
find

1053
00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:42,560
you know a genuine morality now he

1054
00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:44,560
believes he can find it in scientific

1055
00:37:49,030 --> 00:37:46,160
inquiry and and i don't think that's

1056
00:37:50,550 --> 00:37:49,040
true but whatever he might be right and

1057
00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:50,560
and it's not like i don't think science

1058
00:37:53,589 --> 00:37:52,560
can inform our moral choices and maybe

1059
00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:53,599
has to

1060
00:37:55,990 --> 00:37:54,320
but

1061
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:56,000
i turn you know when i came out on the

1062
00:38:00,470 --> 00:37:58,320
public sphere and first talked to sam i

1063
00:38:01,430 --> 00:38:00,480
had this axe to grind in some sense

1064
00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:01,440
which was

1065
00:38:07,030 --> 00:38:04,720
my belief that the fundamental framework

1066
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:07,040
from within which we see the world isn't

1067
00:38:11,109 --> 00:38:09,440
and can't be objective and i still

1068
00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:11,119
believe that's true but i i was

1069
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:12,880
hammering at home because i wanted to

1070
00:38:17,109 --> 00:38:15,359
win that argument and that was that

1071
00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:17,119
wasn't the most sophisticated way of

1072
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:19,520
going about it why less and less i think

1073
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:22,320
as we talked

1074
00:38:25,829 --> 00:38:24,400
so and this time i didn't do that at all

1075
00:38:27,349 --> 00:38:25,839
i just asked him questions and we

1076
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:27,359
definitely had the best conversation

1077
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:28,800
we've ever had

1078
00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:30,480
so and i'm really hoping to do that with

1079
00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:32,320
dawkins it's like i don't want to win an

1080
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:33,520
argument i don't want to have an

1081
00:38:36,870 --> 00:38:35,440
argument i want to ask him questions i

1082
00:38:39,109 --> 00:38:36,880
want to find out what he thinks because

1083
00:38:42,069 --> 00:38:39,119
dawkins is no fool great and his

1084
00:38:44,310 --> 00:38:42,079
atheistic materialism grounded in his

1085
00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:44,320
evolutionary thinking like

1086
00:38:48,550 --> 00:38:46,720
that's powerful you know it's it's a

1087
00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:48,560
powerful system of thought and he's a

1088
00:38:52,710 --> 00:38:50,960
master of it and so i want to find out

1089
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:52,720
what led him to the conclusions that he

1090
00:38:56,870 --> 00:38:55,359
came to and i have questions for him you

1091
00:38:59,270 --> 00:38:56,880
know i want to talk to him for example

1092
00:39:01,030 --> 00:38:59,280
about the instinct to imitate because

1093
00:39:03,190 --> 00:39:01,040
you were talking earlier about something

1094
00:39:06,630 --> 00:39:03,200
that unites us you know

1095
00:39:09,829 --> 00:39:06,640
so imagine this for example

1096
00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:09,839
you know that the same person can be

1097
00:39:13,829 --> 00:39:12,400
admired by a lot of different people

1098
00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:13,839
even people who differ in their

1099
00:39:17,589 --> 00:39:15,680
political beliefs

1100
00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:17,599
and that that admiration sort of

1101
00:39:21,430 --> 00:39:19,920
captures them that's charisma that's

1102
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:21,440
part of charisma

1103
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:23,119
the charisma is part of an instinct

1104
00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:24,640
right because if i think you're

1105
00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:26,960
charismatic and then i'm going to watch

1106
00:39:30,630 --> 00:39:28,800
you more my eyes are going to point to

1107
00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:30,640
you more i'm going to be more likely to

1108
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:32,640
do the things you do i'm more likely to

1109
00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:34,480
imitate you

1110
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:36,000
and so i would say there's something

1111
00:39:40,390 --> 00:39:38,000
like a central spirit that we're all

1112
00:39:42,069 --> 00:39:40,400
driven to imitate

1113
00:39:44,950 --> 00:39:42,079
and it's the thing that we see as

1114
00:39:47,030 --> 00:39:44,960
admirable across people

1115
00:39:49,349 --> 00:39:47,040
and that points to something that we

1116
00:39:51,349 --> 00:39:49,359
experience as religious

1117
00:39:52,710 --> 00:39:51,359
so like the ultimate

1118
00:39:54,550 --> 00:39:52,720
expression

1119
00:39:56,990 --> 00:39:54,560
of that which is

1120
00:40:00,150 --> 00:39:57,000
that which compels imitation is

1121
00:40:03,109 --> 00:40:00,160
indistinguishable from religious worship

1122
00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:03,119
it's not propositional

1123
00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:06,960
yeah well that's a ver vacant argument

1124
00:40:10,870 --> 00:40:08,880
yes yes yes absolutely well and

1125
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:10,880
verveiki's one of the people

1126
00:40:14,950 --> 00:40:12,720
who've who's thought this sort of thing

1127
00:40:16,710 --> 00:40:14,960
through mo in most detail

1128
00:40:19,589 --> 00:40:16,720
jonathan pageo as well and i know you

1129
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:19,599
had him did he make the cut of your film

1130
00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:21,760
yeah and the director's cut

1131
00:40:25,349 --> 00:40:23,760
so just in the direction we're

1132
00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:25,359
if you'd like to watch the film it's

1133
00:40:29,990 --> 00:40:28,160
best to go to betterleftonsetfilm.com

1134
00:40:31,589 --> 00:40:30,000
because over there instead of itunes and

1135
00:40:33,589 --> 00:40:31,599
youtube and so on which you can also get

1136
00:40:35,109 --> 00:40:33,599
it from if you like if that's easier but

1137
00:40:37,750 --> 00:40:35,119
you can go to the url better left

1138
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:37,760
unsaidfilm.com because over there for

1139
00:40:41,190 --> 00:40:39,119
the same price you get access to the

1140
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:41,200
director's cut which has jonathan pajot

1141
00:40:47,430 --> 00:40:42,960
and i'm sure the listeners the watchers

1142
00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:49,589
yeah well i think peugeot is super smart

1143
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:51,680
man he's deep and same with verveiki

1144
00:40:54,390 --> 00:40:52,800
those two

1145
00:40:56,230 --> 00:40:54,400
they they've taken

1146
00:40:58,630 --> 00:40:56,240
certain forms of thought farther than

1147
00:40:59,589 --> 00:40:58,640
anybody i've ever met verveiki is so

1148
00:41:02,309 --> 00:40:59,599
well

1149
00:41:04,069 --> 00:41:02,319
read it's terrifying and

1150
00:41:06,309 --> 00:41:04,079
pagoda is this weird character because

1151
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:06,319
he's he's he really understood you know

1152
00:41:10,630 --> 00:41:08,640
what he knows he's thinking

1153
00:41:12,390 --> 00:41:10,640
yeah yeah yeah well you see

1154
00:41:13,990 --> 00:41:12,400
well that's part of having an artistic

1155
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:14,000
temperament too you know people like

1156
00:41:19,750 --> 00:41:16,960
that who are more open in trait terms

1157
00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:19,760
they can they can see patterns in things

1158
00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:21,920
now that can lead them astray because

1159
00:41:27,990 --> 00:41:25,520
you can you can project patterns into

1160
00:41:29,990 --> 00:41:28,000
you know the void let's say that aren't

1161
00:41:31,510 --> 00:41:30,000
there that's conspiratorial thinking for

1162
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:31,520
example but

1163
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:33,200
intuitive people

1164
00:41:37,349 --> 00:41:35,359
who are also capable of critical

1165
00:41:39,510 --> 00:41:37,359
thinking pick up patterns long before

1166
00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:39,520
anyone else does i've had graduate

1167
00:41:43,990 --> 00:41:41,280
students like that you know they would

1168
00:41:46,550 --> 00:41:44,000
leap to a scientific conclusion

1169
00:41:47,750 --> 00:41:46,560
that was dead on multiple times and then

1170
00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:47,760
they'd when they were writing their

1171
00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:50,560
papers they'd have to uh fill in how

1172
00:41:53,990 --> 00:41:52,400
they got there well that wasn't how they

1173
00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:54,000
got there they leaped from mountaintop

1174
00:41:58,390 --> 00:41:55,520
to mountaintop using nietzsche's

1175
00:42:00,710 --> 00:41:58,400
terminology and they could see patterns

1176
00:42:03,430 --> 00:42:00,720
and then they they had to construct a

1177
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:03,440
rational story to publish their ideas in

1178
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:05,040
scientific journals it's so funny

1179
00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:06,640
because it's a form of falsification

1180
00:42:10,790 --> 00:42:09,359
right that isn't how they got there but

1181
00:42:12,550 --> 00:42:10,800
but that's so that's one of the

1182
00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:12,560
questions i want to ask dawkins is like

1183
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:15,440
well what about this instinct to imitate

1184
00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:17,760
do you think such a thing exists

1185
00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:19,280
you know because i don't believe he's a

1186
00:42:23,910 --> 00:42:21,520
blank slate theorist

1187
00:42:26,309 --> 00:42:23,920
and we're really good at abstracting out

1188
00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:26,319
things to imitate and so i started

1189
00:42:30,470 --> 00:42:27,839
thinking about this for example when i

1190
00:42:32,950 --> 00:42:30,480
was watching my kids play house

1191
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:32,960
so my son would act out the father you

1192
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:34,960
know he'd be the father but he wasn't

1193
00:42:41,430 --> 00:42:37,520
imitating me exactly he wasn't mimicking

1194
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:41,440
the exact gestures of my body right like

1195
00:42:44,870 --> 00:42:43,440
i do this while i'm imitating you right

1196
00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:44,880
now

1197
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:47,200
but if i was a comedian and i want to

1198
00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:49,839
parody you i would imitate your spirit

1199
00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:52,000
in some sense right and then put a twist

1200
00:42:57,030 --> 00:42:53,920
in it and everyone would laugh so i can

1201
00:42:58,790 --> 00:42:57,040
abstract out from you your pattern

1202
00:43:01,910 --> 00:42:58,800
well then imagine we're way better at it

1203
00:43:02,790 --> 00:43:01,920
than that like if i watched 10 admirable

1204
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:02,800
men

1205
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:04,960
and was gripped by my admiration for

1206
00:43:08,950 --> 00:43:06,480
them let's say i was fortunate enough to

1207
00:43:11,109 --> 00:43:08,960
have 10 admirable men in my family i

1208
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:11,119
could abstract out the central spirit

1209
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:12,720
that makes them all admirable and i

1210
00:43:16,230 --> 00:43:14,800
could imitate that

1211
00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:16,240
so what occurs when you keep doing that

1212
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:18,000
over and over that's exactly right

1213
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:20,240
across generations and so now partly

1214
00:43:24,950 --> 00:43:22,880
what occurs is the imagination

1215
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:24,960
formulates the representation of the

1216
00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:26,480
abstraction

1217
00:43:30,630 --> 00:43:28,160
so i'll give you an example so if you

1218
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:30,640
look in you often see this in byzantine

1219
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:32,560
cathedral so you look up in a byzantine

1220
00:43:38,390 --> 00:43:35,920
cathedral it's a dome so that's the sky

1221
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:38,400
and maybe you'll see an image of christ

1222
00:43:42,470 --> 00:43:40,560
up there as panto crater great creator

1223
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:42,480
of the world this is sort of tied with

1224
00:43:47,270 --> 00:43:44,480
the idea that consciousness gives rise

1225
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:47,280
to reality it's so it's an idealistic

1226
00:43:52,150 --> 00:43:50,560
philosophy or experience well the idea

1227
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:52,160
is something like

1228
00:43:57,270 --> 00:43:53,280
that

1229
00:44:00,069 --> 00:43:57,280
the thing to be admired it's the central

1230
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:00,079
phenomena and function of consciousness

1231
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:02,800
and in some sense it gives rise to re to

1232
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:05,599
the reality that it is good that is good

1233
00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:07,040
itself

1234
00:44:11,910 --> 00:44:08,960
and the imagination gets their way

1235
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:11,920
before the propositional philosophers

1236
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:14,160
way before the artists and the religious

1237
00:44:17,510 --> 00:44:15,520
streamers

1238
00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:17,520
you made an argument that that is

1239
00:44:21,109 --> 00:44:19,520
partly at least what is a religious

1240
00:44:23,190 --> 00:44:21,119
phenomenon now do you think that's only

1241
00:44:24,390 --> 00:44:23,200
it

1242
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:24,400
no

1243
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:28,000
working out okay so

1244
00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:29,920
it these are things i'm going to talk

1245
00:44:33,190 --> 00:44:31,440
about when i go to cambridge because i'm

1246
00:44:34,710 --> 00:44:33,200
going there to oxford and cambridge at

1247
00:44:37,190 --> 00:44:34,720
the end of november and

1248
00:44:39,910 --> 00:44:37,200
in any case so i'm also really

1249
00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:39,920
interested in the idea of depth

1250
00:44:44,950 --> 00:44:41,920
so we all have an intuition of yeah

1251
00:44:47,829 --> 00:44:44,960
depth d e p p pth like philosophical

1252
00:44:49,910 --> 00:44:47,839
depth or literary death or or the depth

1253
00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:49,920
of a conversation you know and if you

1254
00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:51,520
have a deep conversation you know you're

1255
00:44:57,109 --> 00:44:55,040
talking about weighty serious yeah

1256
00:45:01,510 --> 00:44:57,119
fundamental things okay well i have a

1257
00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:05,109
we we have a hierarchy of beliefs

1258
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:07,440
okay some beliefs have more beliefs

1259
00:45:13,270 --> 00:45:10,640
dependent on them than others

1260
00:45:16,710 --> 00:45:13,280
the more beliefs that are dependent on a

1261
00:45:19,510 --> 00:45:16,720
given belief the deeper that belief is

1262
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:19,520
the deepest of those beliefs

1263
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:22,560
we hold sacred by definition

1264
00:45:26,230 --> 00:45:24,160
by definition

1265
00:45:28,630 --> 00:45:26,240
our deepest beliefs are sacred their

1266
00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:28,640
their primary and you can tell that in

1267
00:45:33,430 --> 00:45:31,119
part because if they're challenged

1268
00:45:35,430 --> 00:45:33,440
you get unbelievably upset and the

1269
00:45:36,950 --> 00:45:35,440
reason you get upset is because well

1270
00:45:39,190 --> 00:45:36,960
you're not just destabilizing that

1271
00:45:41,270 --> 00:45:39,200
belief you're destabilizing all the

1272
00:45:42,069 --> 00:45:41,280
beliefs that depend on it and so

1273
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:42,079
one

1274
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:44,800
sacred belief in a marriage is uh

1275
00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:48,720
sexual fidelity let's say faithfulness

1276
00:45:52,470 --> 00:45:50,560
right and you kind of take that on faith

1277
00:45:54,390 --> 00:45:52,480
because while you take it's own faith

1278
00:45:57,109 --> 00:45:54,400
that you think that's valuable

1279
00:45:59,430 --> 00:45:57,119
in part but it's also on faith that your

1280
00:46:01,910 --> 00:45:59,440
partner is manifesting that

1281
00:46:04,230 --> 00:46:01,920
because you you know

1282
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:04,240
all you have to do is get paranoid

1283
00:46:07,430 --> 00:46:06,079
and then you've you can accumulate

1284
00:46:09,349 --> 00:46:07,440
evidence that your partner isn't

1285
00:46:11,670 --> 00:46:09,359
trustworthy and no one's perfectly

1286
00:46:14,950 --> 00:46:11,680
trustworthy so you could see how right

1287
00:46:16,069 --> 00:46:14,960
exactly so but it's a fundamental belief

1288
00:46:17,750 --> 00:46:16,079
and then if you find out that your

1289
00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:17,760
partner's betrayed you well then the

1290
00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:19,680
whole house of cards perhaps not the

1291
00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:21,440
whole house of cards but a lot of the

1292
00:46:26,309 --> 00:46:24,000
cards come tumbling down you know

1293
00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:26,319
the past is no longer what you thought

1294
00:46:29,910 --> 00:46:27,520
it was

1295
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:29,920
your whole faith in humanity itself

1296
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:31,839
might be compromised including your

1297
00:46:37,030 --> 00:46:34,319
faith in yourself like it can really

1298
00:46:38,470 --> 00:46:37,040
it's a dagger in the depths especially

1299
00:46:41,270 --> 00:46:38,480
if you really

1300
00:46:44,069 --> 00:46:41,280
loved the person and really trusted them

1301
00:46:46,230 --> 00:46:44,079
so so say the more sacred a belief is

1302
00:46:47,990 --> 00:46:46,240
the deeper it is embedded in this

1303
00:46:49,589 --> 00:46:48,000
in this structure of beliefs and i don't

1304
00:46:50,870 --> 00:46:49,599
believe those are objective beliefs

1305
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:50,880
that's another thing i want to talk to

1306
00:46:54,829 --> 00:46:52,560
talkings about i do not think the

1307
00:46:57,829 --> 00:46:54,839
scientific evidence suggests

1308
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:57,839
that our perceptions

1309
00:47:01,589 --> 00:47:00,240
that what we perceive are material

1310
00:47:03,430 --> 00:47:01,599
objects

1311
00:47:05,349 --> 00:47:03,440
that are self-evident that we then

1312
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:05,359
derive our conceptual systems from i

1313
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:06,720
don't think there's any evidence for

1314
00:47:09,589 --> 00:47:07,680
that

1315
00:47:11,829 --> 00:47:09,599
i think it's wrong and it's been proven

1316
00:47:13,589 --> 00:47:11,839
wrong

1317
00:47:14,710 --> 00:47:13,599
so you know that's some of the places i

1318
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:14,720
want to go

1319
00:47:18,309 --> 00:47:16,240
yeah tell me what you think of this now

1320
00:47:20,870 --> 00:47:18,319
i've only thought about this recently

1321
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:20,880
i think when atheists

1322
00:47:25,030 --> 00:47:23,200
call the religious dogmedic what they

1323
00:47:27,750 --> 00:47:25,040
truly mean is that you're pantheistic

1324
00:47:29,510 --> 00:47:27,760
for low-level gods what i mean is

1325
00:47:30,630 --> 00:47:29,520
you what you've outlined is something

1326
00:47:31,750 --> 00:47:30,640
like this so let's say you have a

1327
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:31,760
hierarchy and hopefully it's

1328
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:33,280
monotheistic in the sense that you're

1329
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:35,280
integrated which no one is but hopefully

1330
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:37,119
it's you're pointing to one god one

1331
00:47:40,150 --> 00:47:38,720
source of good okay then you're like

1332
00:47:41,750 --> 00:47:40,160
well what makes me good and you keep

1333
00:47:44,390 --> 00:47:41,760
going down and down and down until you

1334
00:47:45,589 --> 00:47:44,400
get to extremely micro level actions

1335
00:47:47,190 --> 00:47:45,599
such as

1336
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:47,200
type this email i'm typing this email

1337
00:47:50,069 --> 00:47:48,640
why so that i can get an approval for

1338
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:50,079
someone for an interview why so that i

1339
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:52,000
can talk and hopefully so on and so on

1340
00:47:56,230 --> 00:47:54,720
and so on and i think

1341
00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:56,240
i think you've outlined i'm pretty sure

1342
00:48:00,549 --> 00:47:58,240
it was you that it depends on so which

1343
00:48:02,069 --> 00:48:00,559
level there's the destruction that is

1344
00:48:03,190 --> 00:48:02,079
proportional to the anxiety that you

1345
00:48:05,270 --> 00:48:03,200
experience

1346
00:48:06,870 --> 00:48:05,280
okay that's exactly right so then i

1347
00:48:08,549 --> 00:48:06,880
think we know the neurophysiology of

1348
00:48:10,630 --> 00:48:08,559
that even

1349
00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:10,640
okay so then when

1350
00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:12,160
someone like sam harris calls someone

1351
00:48:14,549 --> 00:48:13,200
else

1352
00:48:16,470 --> 00:48:14,559
dogmatic

1353
00:48:18,390 --> 00:48:16,480
essentially what they mean is that why

1354
00:48:20,549 --> 00:48:18,400
are you getting upset at this level why

1355
00:48:22,630 --> 00:48:20,559
are you holding this to be sacred

1356
00:48:25,109 --> 00:48:22,640
so here's another example to people who

1357
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:25,119
are fundamental in their religious views

1358
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:26,559
so they believe it's literal what's in

1359
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:28,079
the bible is literal something i think

1360
00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:29,760
about is and even people who think the

1361
00:48:34,309 --> 00:48:31,920
bible is entirely metaphorical

1362
00:48:35,750 --> 00:48:34,319
if i say well what if let's imagine i'm

1363
00:48:37,990 --> 00:48:35,760
speaking to a fundamentalist if i say

1364
00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:38,000
what if this aspect of the bible is not

1365
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:39,680
meant to be literal it's metaphorical

1366
00:48:43,190 --> 00:48:41,040
they get upset

1367
00:48:45,190 --> 00:48:43,200
why do you get upset why is your belief

1368
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:45,200
in god contingent should your belief in

1369
00:48:48,870 --> 00:48:47,040
god be contingent or should you have

1370
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:48,880
faith no matter what

1371
00:48:52,870 --> 00:48:51,040
okay so then they would say well well so

1372
00:48:54,230 --> 00:48:52,880
why does that undermine your belief to

1373
00:48:55,670 --> 00:48:54,240
me faith

1374
00:48:57,030 --> 00:48:55,680
should be

1375
00:48:58,069 --> 00:48:57,040
well it shouldn't be so easily

1376
00:49:00,069 --> 00:48:58,079
undermined

1377
00:49:01,910 --> 00:49:00,079
and so in some sense it's as if they're

1378
00:49:03,990 --> 00:49:01,920
saying here is my god instead of at the

1379
00:49:05,910 --> 00:49:04,000
top level well here what oh yeah they

1380
00:49:07,109 --> 00:49:05,920
are well here okay well so let's dig

1381
00:49:08,950 --> 00:49:07,119
into that a little bit that's a very

1382
00:49:11,430 --> 00:49:08,960
good observation well

1383
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:11,440
one of their unrecognized gods

1384
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:12,480
is

1385
00:49:16,710 --> 00:49:14,720
literal

1386
00:49:19,190 --> 00:49:16,720
the the phrase itself

1387
00:49:21,910 --> 00:49:19,200
because literal means real

1388
00:49:24,630 --> 00:49:21,920
and it means ultimately real but literal

1389
00:49:26,309 --> 00:49:24,640
doesn't mean real or ultimately real

1390
00:49:28,470 --> 00:49:26,319
necessarily

1391
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:28,480
like literals really like

1392
00:49:32,470 --> 00:49:31,440
what does a dostoevsky novel literally

1393
00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:32,480
mean

1394
00:49:36,390 --> 00:49:33,760
well nothing

1395
00:49:39,430 --> 00:49:36,400
well none of it's true

1396
00:49:41,910 --> 00:49:39,440
it didn't happen or did it or did it

1397
00:49:43,750 --> 00:49:41,920
really happen like at a meta level well

1398
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:43,760
that's where great novels happen is at a

1399
00:49:48,950 --> 00:49:46,640
meta level so truth is complicated and

1400
00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:48,960
this is see so the fundamentalists

1401
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:50,240
they're they're tripped up

1402
00:49:54,069 --> 00:49:52,400
philosophically to some degree because

1403
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:54,079
they

1404
00:50:00,630 --> 00:49:58,400
oh my god it's so complicated this is

1405
00:50:05,589 --> 00:50:00,640
where sam harris and i kept going off on

1406
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:07,109
they don't know what they mean when they

1407
00:50:12,309 --> 00:50:08,880
say literal they equate literal with

1408
00:50:14,470 --> 00:50:12,319
real they create real with material real

1409
00:50:16,870 --> 00:50:14,480
like and so when you go after that and

1410
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:16,880
you say well it's not literally true

1411
00:50:19,589 --> 00:50:18,160
what you're saying what you're

1412
00:50:22,510 --> 00:50:19,599
essentially saying is that well your

1413
00:50:24,150 --> 00:50:22,520
whole belief system is predicated on a

1414
00:50:26,950 --> 00:50:24,160
misapprehension

1415
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:26,960
even about the nature of god let's say

1416
00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:28,480
i mean you know most religious

1417
00:50:31,990 --> 00:50:30,240
traditions many religious traditions

1418
00:50:34,950 --> 00:50:32,000
insist that

1419
00:50:35,910 --> 00:50:34,960
representing god in a concrete manner is

1420
00:50:37,270 --> 00:50:35,920
actually

1421
00:50:39,910 --> 00:50:37,280
an error

1422
00:50:42,549 --> 00:50:39,920
the taoists are not very happy with that

1423
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:42,559
idea that muslims certainly aren't uh

1424
00:50:45,510 --> 00:50:44,400
the orthodox christians really don't

1425
00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:45,520
many of them really don't like to

1426
00:50:49,190 --> 00:50:47,200
represent god the father in their

1427
00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:49,200
iconography and part of the reason for

1428
00:50:53,510 --> 00:50:50,640
that is that

1429
00:50:54,230 --> 00:50:53,520
you shouldn't concretize the absolute

1430
00:50:57,910 --> 00:50:54,240
it's

1431
00:51:00,470 --> 00:50:57,920
you don't concretize it you can't act it

1432
00:51:02,150 --> 00:51:00,480
out so there's a tension but

1433
00:51:04,150 --> 00:51:02,160
you know when people say

1434
00:51:05,430 --> 00:51:04,160
people ask me if i believe in god and i

1435
00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:05,440
always think well there's a whole bunch

1436
00:51:08,790 --> 00:51:07,040
of assumptions in that question that you

1437
00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:08,800
want me to swallow so that you can

1438
00:51:12,710 --> 00:51:10,480
categorize my answer according to your

1439
00:51:14,549 --> 00:51:12,720
pre-existing schemas and that isn't an

1440
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:14,559
answer they like

1441
00:51:18,069 --> 00:51:15,440
but

1442
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:18,079
it's an equation right is

1443
00:51:21,589 --> 00:51:20,240
god real god real well what do you mean

1444
00:51:23,750 --> 00:51:21,599
by real

1445
00:51:26,390 --> 00:51:23,760
right you know what i mean no i don't do

1446
00:51:28,549 --> 00:51:26,400
you mean real like a table

1447
00:51:30,150 --> 00:51:28,559
real like the table you they don't know

1448
00:51:31,990 --> 00:51:30,160
they just think they know it's just like

1449
00:51:34,150 --> 00:51:32,000
the helicopter issue it's like do you

1450
00:51:36,390 --> 00:51:34,160
mean the table do you mean the table you

1451
00:51:39,190 --> 00:51:36,400
know do you mean your table

1452
00:51:40,710 --> 00:51:39,200
do you mean tables in general as real

1453
00:51:42,549 --> 00:51:40,720
do they have to have four legs do they

1454
00:51:44,069 --> 00:51:42,559
have to have a hard top

1455
00:51:46,390 --> 00:51:44,079
like what are we talking about when we

1456
00:51:50,630 --> 00:51:46,400
mean real do we mean objectively real

1457
00:51:52,870 --> 00:51:50,640
like a table well god isn't like a table

1458
00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:52,880
well then he isn't real it's like okay

1459
00:51:56,630 --> 00:51:54,960
well have it your way if that's as far

1460
00:51:57,670 --> 00:51:56,640
as your thinking goes

1461
00:51:59,109 --> 00:51:57,680
but i don't even think that

1462
00:52:02,390 --> 00:51:59,119
sophisticated

1463
00:52:05,910 --> 00:52:02,400
they know it or not

1464
00:52:07,510 --> 00:52:05,920
don't think that god is a is real like a

1465
00:52:09,750 --> 00:52:07,520
table

1466
00:52:12,549 --> 00:52:09,760
and and as you already pointed out when

1467
00:52:15,510 --> 00:52:12,559
you with your discussion about your cup

1468
00:52:17,750 --> 00:52:15,520
even what exactly constitutes a table is

1469
00:52:19,670 --> 00:52:17,760
subject to great

1470
00:52:20,870 --> 00:52:19,680
so it's not obvious look one of the most

1471
00:52:23,349 --> 00:52:20,880
one of the most

1472
00:52:25,589 --> 00:52:23,359
impressive

1473
00:52:27,510 --> 00:52:25,599
thinkers i ever encountered

1474
00:52:29,270 --> 00:52:27,520
in the field of perception

1475
00:52:31,510 --> 00:52:29,280
wrote this book called an ecological

1476
00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:31,520
approach to visual perception

1477
00:52:37,829 --> 00:52:36,240
and he would say that a table is a um

1478
00:52:39,589 --> 00:52:37,839
i always forget his name it's an

1479
00:52:42,549 --> 00:52:39,599
ecological approach to visual perception

1480
00:52:44,870 --> 00:52:42,559
gibson yes yes okay so

1481
00:52:47,910 --> 00:52:44,880
when you see a table do you see an

1482
00:52:51,109 --> 00:52:47,920
a flat surface with four legs

1483
00:52:52,950 --> 00:52:51,119
or do you see a sitting down to eat

1484
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:52,960
place

1485
00:52:56,790 --> 00:52:55,440
and the answer is you see a sitting down

1486
00:52:59,190 --> 00:52:56,800
to eat place

1487
00:53:01,510 --> 00:52:59,200
and there are objects that slot into

1488
00:53:03,030 --> 00:53:01,520
that category that's the answer it's not

1489
00:53:05,270 --> 00:53:03,040
the other way around you don't see the

1490
00:53:07,190 --> 00:53:05,280
material object which is self-evident

1491
00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:07,200
and infer the function

1492
00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:08,960
now it might be a combination of those

1493
00:53:14,309 --> 00:53:11,359
two things as well but it doesn't matter

1494
00:53:16,870 --> 00:53:14,319
the the functional element of it has a

1495
00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:16,880
certain perceptual primacy and i'll give

1496
00:53:22,710 --> 00:53:20,000
you a kind of a nifty example of this

1497
00:53:25,109 --> 00:53:22,720
there is a neurological condition called

1498
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:25,119
utilization behavior which accompanies

1499
00:53:27,670 --> 00:53:26,880
prefrontal damage

1500
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:27,680
and

1501
00:53:32,710 --> 00:53:30,240
if someone has manifest utilization

1502
00:53:35,670 --> 00:53:32,720
behavior if you give them an object they

1503
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:35,680
can't not use it

1504
00:53:39,829 --> 00:53:37,760
so because what's happened is

1505
00:53:42,150 --> 00:53:39,839
when they see a cup they'll lift it up

1506
00:53:44,470 --> 00:53:42,160
and drink from it because a cup is a

1507
00:53:46,710 --> 00:53:44,480
lifting up and drinking thing

1508
00:53:49,109 --> 00:53:46,720
perceptually it grip it grips their

1509
00:53:51,030 --> 00:53:49,119
motor output they can't inhibit it so

1510
00:53:53,750 --> 00:53:51,040
but the fact that they have to inhibit

1511
00:53:55,349 --> 00:53:53,760
it shows how low level the functional

1512
00:53:57,270 --> 00:53:55,359
perception is

1513
00:53:59,030 --> 00:53:57,280
right and so so

1514
00:54:02,309 --> 00:53:59,040
so and that's part of what i was trying

1515
00:54:03,750 --> 00:54:02,319
to lay out with harris is that

1516
00:54:06,630 --> 00:54:03,760
you know

1517
00:54:08,549 --> 00:54:06,640
the idea that the most real is the

1518
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:08,559
objective

1519
00:54:13,030 --> 00:54:10,400
doesn't seem to be true for our

1520
00:54:15,910 --> 00:54:13,040
perceptions and then that tangles us up

1521
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:15,920
scientifically right because

1522
00:54:21,670 --> 00:54:18,480
if our perceptions evolved

1523
00:54:25,030 --> 00:54:21,680
and we evolved to adapt to reality and

1524
00:54:27,349 --> 00:54:25,040
we don't see objects as the fundamental

1525
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:27,359
perceptual reality then what does that

1526
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:29,280
say about reality

1527
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:30,960
and that's not what the answer to that

1528
00:54:35,670 --> 00:54:33,839
question is not bloody obvious

1529
00:54:38,390 --> 00:54:35,680
well that's another question i hope that

1530
00:54:39,510 --> 00:54:38,400
i can get to with with dawkins

1531
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:39,520
you know

1532
00:54:44,710 --> 00:54:41,040
and maybe he knows something that i

1533
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:46,630
yeah see i want to make the claim that

1534
00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:48,240
it sounds then

1535
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:49,680
and i believe you've made this claim

1536
00:54:53,109 --> 00:54:51,520
perhaps even for reiki that the longer

1537
00:54:55,349 --> 00:54:53,119
something has persisted evolutionarily

1538
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:55,359
the most quote unquote real it is

1539
00:55:00,789 --> 00:54:58,559
however however then one would be acting

1540
00:55:02,549 --> 00:55:00,799
as if there's something external

1541
00:55:04,630 --> 00:55:02,559
that we're trying to map out and then

1542
00:55:06,309 --> 00:55:04,640
the closer we are to that the closer our

1543
00:55:07,829 --> 00:55:06,319
map is to that reality of course we're

1544
00:55:09,270 --> 00:55:07,839
not trying to mistake the map in the

1545
00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:09,280
territory

1546
00:55:13,349 --> 00:55:11,760
well the whether or not material objects

1547
00:55:18,069 --> 00:55:13,359
exist

1548
00:55:20,470 --> 00:55:18,079
right and it's not obvious what the most

1549
00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:20,480
persistent patterns are

1550
00:55:24,230 --> 00:55:22,480
like it looks to me and you can talk

1551
00:55:26,549 --> 00:55:24,240
about archetypes in this wise i would

1552
00:55:29,589 --> 00:55:26,559
say to some degree

1553
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:29,599
trees have been around a long time and

1554
00:55:34,870 --> 00:55:31,760
the tree structure is pretty embedded in

1555
00:55:35,750 --> 00:55:34,880
our perceptual perceptual systems

1556
00:55:36,950 --> 00:55:35,760
and

1557
00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:36,960
so

1558
00:55:40,789 --> 00:55:38,880
there there is a relationship between

1559
00:55:43,109 --> 00:55:40,799
how long something has been around in

1560
00:55:44,950 --> 00:55:43,119
our environment and how

1561
00:55:46,789 --> 00:55:44,960
deep that is within our perceptual

1562
00:55:48,549 --> 00:55:46,799
structures

1563
00:55:50,789 --> 00:55:48,559
you know like we as we assume a

1564
00:55:52,870 --> 00:55:50,799
difference between up and down

1565
00:55:55,030 --> 00:55:52,880
for example that's really built into us

1566
00:55:58,390 --> 00:55:55,040
and it's it's at the basis of a lot of

1567
00:56:02,309 --> 00:55:58,400
our metaphors up is you know high up in

1568
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:02,319
the sky up is uh elevated up is the

1569
00:56:07,589 --> 00:56:06,000
mountaintop up is the sage up is god

1570
00:56:09,430 --> 00:56:07,599
well that's partly because we're up and

1571
00:56:10,789 --> 00:56:09,440
down creatures because there's gravity

1572
00:56:12,789 --> 00:56:10,799
and there's the ground and we're stuck

1573
00:56:15,510 --> 00:56:12,799
to the ground and the ground is base and

1574
00:56:16,870 --> 00:56:15,520
it's material and it's dirty and the sky

1575
00:56:18,470 --> 00:56:16,880
is pure and

1576
00:56:20,470 --> 00:56:18,480
etc etc

1577
00:56:23,589 --> 00:56:20,480
a lot of our metaphorical architecture

1578
00:56:25,349 --> 00:56:23,599
is predicated on these underlying

1579
00:56:26,069 --> 00:56:25,359
presumptions and they do have a depth

1580
00:56:28,309 --> 00:56:26,079
and

1581
00:56:30,470 --> 00:56:28,319
that's also partly why the biological

1582
00:56:32,950 --> 00:56:30,480
question in relationship to ethics

1583
00:56:35,990 --> 00:56:32,960
becomes complex too because

1584
00:56:37,910 --> 00:56:36,000
some of these adaptations to

1585
00:56:38,950 --> 00:56:37,920
permanent patterns

1586
00:56:40,789 --> 00:56:38,960
are

1587
00:56:43,430 --> 00:56:40,799
biological

1588
00:56:44,549 --> 00:56:43,440
fundamentals right and so

1589
00:56:47,910 --> 00:56:44,559
and if

1590
00:56:50,230 --> 00:56:47,920
utilization is part of that then

1591
00:56:51,829 --> 00:56:50,240
evolution of god would you say

1592
00:56:53,270 --> 00:56:51,839
persistent patterns that we've

1593
00:56:55,190 --> 00:56:53,280
encountered over our evolutionary

1594
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:55,200
history have shaped the

1595
00:56:59,510 --> 00:56:56,720
axioms of our

1596
00:57:01,510 --> 00:56:59,520
ethics

1597
00:57:02,470 --> 00:57:01,520
it's complicated man like all this stuff

1598
00:57:04,950 --> 00:57:02,480
is

1599
00:57:08,309 --> 00:57:07,349
okay so where i was going well you said

1600
00:57:09,750 --> 00:57:08,319
quite a

1601
00:57:11,510 --> 00:57:09,760
you said quite

1602
00:57:14,900 --> 00:57:11,520
quite a significant amount

1603
00:57:14,910 --> 00:57:18,309
[Music]

1604
00:57:21,510 --> 00:57:20,309
okay so i'll just go down one route i

1605
00:57:24,630 --> 00:57:21,520
don't know if you're aware of donald

1606
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:26,789
the name doesn't ring a bell okay so

1607
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:28,400
donald hoffman

1608
00:57:32,950 --> 00:57:30,559
is a cognitive scientist who makes the

1609
00:57:35,270 --> 00:57:32,960
claim that what we see is not reality it

1610
00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:35,280
almost certainly cannot be and the

1611
00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:36,720
reason is that

1612
00:57:40,309 --> 00:57:38,880
the amount of ways that reality could be

1613
00:57:42,870 --> 00:57:40,319
versus the amount of ways you could

1614
00:57:44,710 --> 00:57:42,880
perceive there's a it

1615
00:57:46,069 --> 00:57:44,720
so let's say the amount of ways reality

1616
00:57:47,750 --> 00:57:46,079
could be is at the bottom and then you

1617
00:57:49,349 --> 00:57:47,760
have on the the numerator the amount of

1618
00:57:50,630 --> 00:57:49,359
weights that you perceive that tends to

1619
00:57:52,069 --> 00:57:50,640
zero

1620
00:57:53,829 --> 00:57:52,079
for anything that's even remotely

1621
00:57:56,309 --> 00:57:53,839
complicated which we are more than

1622
00:57:59,349 --> 00:57:56,319
remotely complicated well look you've

1623
00:58:01,910 --> 00:57:59,359
watched um the simpsons or south park

1624
00:58:02,789 --> 00:58:01,920
south park's even a better example

1625
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:02,799
well

1626
00:58:08,950 --> 00:58:05,520
it's barely animation at all south park

1627
00:58:10,549 --> 00:58:08,960
you know it's just icons moving

1628
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:10,559
you don't care

1629
00:58:14,069 --> 00:58:12,240
that's good enough

1630
00:58:15,510 --> 00:58:14,079
and it doesn't matter that in fact it's

1631
00:58:17,990 --> 00:58:15,520
kind of an interesting style and it

1632
00:58:20,069 --> 00:58:18,000
doesn't clutter up the story right and

1633
00:58:21,670 --> 00:58:20,079
so what you see is an icon now

1634
00:58:25,270 --> 00:58:21,680
look

1635
00:58:27,990 --> 00:58:25,280
if you see an icon and the pixels in the

1636
00:58:31,270 --> 00:58:28,000
icon are random samples of the

1637
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:32,390
then

1638
00:58:36,630 --> 00:58:34,000
and the reality doesn't change during

1639
00:58:38,230 --> 00:58:36,640
the act of perception then

1640
00:58:40,230 --> 00:58:38,240
you're still seeing reality but you're

1641
00:58:41,510 --> 00:58:40,240
seeing it at very low resolution and i

1642
00:58:42,950 --> 00:58:41,520
think that's a better way of thinking

1643
00:58:47,670 --> 00:58:42,960
about it

1644
00:58:49,510 --> 00:58:47,680
it's low resolution it's not not real

1645
00:58:51,829 --> 00:58:49,520
and you don't you actually don't want

1646
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:51,839
your representations to be any higher

1647
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:53,920
resolution than necessary so imagine on

1648
00:58:56,789 --> 00:58:55,200
a computer sometimes you want a

1649
00:58:58,789 --> 00:58:56,799
thumbnail

1650
00:59:00,789 --> 00:58:58,799
because that's good enough and sometimes

1651
00:59:02,309 --> 00:59:00,799
you want a high resolution photo because

1652
00:59:03,750 --> 00:59:02,319
you need detail

1653
00:59:05,349 --> 00:59:03,760
and that's a really good way of thinking

1654
00:59:08,309 --> 00:59:05,359
about our perceptions

1655
00:59:09,910 --> 00:59:08,319
they're low and then also our our

1656
00:59:12,230 --> 00:59:09,920
heuristics

1657
00:59:14,710 --> 00:59:12,240
so i think that each of us has a

1658
00:59:16,390 --> 00:59:14,720
complete map of the world

1659
00:59:17,750 --> 00:59:16,400
now you might say well we can't because

1660
00:59:19,270 --> 00:59:17,760
we're ignorant and the world's real

1661
00:59:21,270 --> 00:59:19,280
complicated it's like yeah but we just

1662
00:59:23,430 --> 00:59:21,280
cover up what we don't

1663
00:59:24,630 --> 00:59:23,440
perceive in detail with a low resolution

1664
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:24,640
map

1665
00:59:28,870 --> 00:59:25,920
and so

1666
00:59:31,589 --> 00:59:28,880
things we haven't delved into in detail

1667
00:59:33,430 --> 00:59:31,599
are mapped in a very low resolution way

1668
00:59:35,030 --> 00:59:33,440
and that's good enough as long as when

1669
00:59:36,710 --> 00:59:35,040
we use the representation we don't

1670
00:59:40,870 --> 00:59:36,720
encounter an error

1671
00:59:42,470 --> 00:59:40,880
like so so it works

1672
00:59:46,710 --> 00:59:42,480
and if it doesn't work well then you

1673
00:59:51,829 --> 00:59:48,630
you have an explanation for in some

1674
00:59:54,549 --> 00:59:51,839
sense a representation of everything

1675
00:59:57,510 --> 00:59:54,559
it's just low resolution

1676
00:59:59,510 --> 00:59:57,520
like like think of the word sky

1677
01:00:01,750 --> 00:59:59,520
okay that's an e that's that's that's an

1678
01:00:04,069 --> 01:00:01,760
icon the word is an icon so you could

1679
01:00:07,109 --> 01:00:04,079
think the word is a representation of an

1680
01:00:09,190 --> 01:00:07,119
image of a representation of reality

1681
01:00:10,870 --> 01:00:09,200
so when you look at the sky you don't

1682
01:00:11,910 --> 01:00:10,880
see the sky

1683
01:00:13,829 --> 01:00:11,920
like let's say you're looking up in the

1684
01:00:15,589 --> 01:00:13,839
night sky i mean god live there's a

1685
01:00:17,589 --> 01:00:15,599
hundred billion galaxies up there you

1686
01:00:19,430 --> 01:00:17,599
don't see them

1687
01:00:21,109 --> 01:00:19,440
you see a low-res representation and

1688
01:00:22,870 --> 01:00:21,119
then you make that even lower res by

1689
01:00:24,789 --> 01:00:22,880
saying sky

1690
01:00:26,309 --> 01:00:24,799
well is that good enough well it's good

1691
01:00:27,589 --> 01:00:26,319
enough you don't get hit by a meteor

1692
01:00:29,589 --> 01:00:27,599
when you're out there on the deck

1693
01:00:32,069 --> 01:00:29,599
standing looking up at the sky because

1694
01:00:34,309 --> 01:00:32,079
it it does the trick for the time

1695
01:00:36,309 --> 01:00:34,319
that's a pragmatic preg that's a

1696
01:00:37,190 --> 01:00:36,319
pragmatic approach to truth to some

1697
01:00:38,069 --> 01:00:37,200
degree

1698
01:00:39,750 --> 01:00:38,079
you know

1699
01:00:41,510 --> 01:00:39,760
it works well enough for your current

1700
01:00:43,349 --> 01:00:41,520
purposes

1701
01:00:45,829 --> 01:00:43,359
complete enough for you to act in the

1702
01:00:47,990 --> 01:00:45,839
manner that produces the result you

1703
01:00:49,829 --> 01:00:48,000
you want not the result you predict the

1704
01:00:51,589 --> 01:00:49,839
one you actually want it doesn't always

1705
01:00:53,750 --> 01:00:51,599
occur like that yeah it's not

1706
01:00:55,990 --> 01:00:53,760
no well of course not because because

1707
01:00:58,309 --> 01:00:56,000
it's partly because our our low res reps

1708
01:01:00,069 --> 01:00:58,319
our representations are fallible

1709
01:01:03,510 --> 01:01:00,079
immensely fallible

1710
01:01:07,190 --> 01:01:04,630
you know when you were speaking to

1711
01:01:08,630 --> 01:01:07,200
harris what i thought was underlying the

1712
01:01:10,710 --> 01:01:08,640
disagreement between you two and even

1713
01:01:13,030 --> 01:01:10,720
with you and brett weinstein about truth

1714
01:01:15,030 --> 01:01:13,040
is that there's the implicit assumption

1715
01:01:17,030 --> 01:01:15,040
that one should pursue true

1716
01:01:18,309 --> 01:01:17,040
so i don't know if that's the case but

1717
01:01:19,510 --> 01:01:18,319
when you're referring to truth and

1718
01:01:21,589 --> 01:01:19,520
you're saying well here's the definition

1719
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:21,599
of truth and if we were to just follow

1720
01:01:25,109 --> 01:01:23,280
blindly scientific truth we would build

1721
01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:25,119
animals which we have we could destroy

1722
01:01:29,109 --> 01:01:26,640
us there are many paths that can go that

1723
01:01:30,470 --> 01:01:29,119
aren't salutary so we should pick

1724
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:30,480
and write we're saying well one is

1725
01:01:34,390 --> 01:01:32,000
explanatory well who cares about

1726
01:01:35,750 --> 01:01:34,400
explanatory we care about our life

1727
01:01:37,910 --> 01:01:35,760
uh

1728
01:01:39,589 --> 01:01:37,920
to me what was at the un

1729
01:01:42,069 --> 01:01:39,599
to me what was underneath it was that we

1730
01:01:43,750 --> 01:01:42,079
should pursue truth is that am i correct

1731
01:01:44,470 --> 01:01:43,760
in my assessment or was there something

1732
01:01:46,390 --> 01:01:44,480
else

1733
01:01:51,109 --> 01:01:46,400
so what if one made the claim that we

1734
01:01:55,430 --> 01:01:53,349
well we can't pursue it everywhere right

1735
01:01:59,109 --> 01:01:55,440
there has to be a spirit that animates

1736
01:02:02,309 --> 01:02:00,870
to give it some direction well look

1737
01:02:04,549 --> 01:02:02,319
here's an example i think i probably

1738
01:02:07,589 --> 01:02:04,559
used this in my discussions with harris

1739
01:02:09,270 --> 01:02:07,599
i read this book once about

1740
01:02:10,789 --> 01:02:09,280
biological warfare research in the

1741
01:02:12,950 --> 01:02:10,799
soviet union and it's pretty damn

1742
01:02:14,230 --> 01:02:12,960
relevant in the case of wuhan let's say

1743
01:02:15,910 --> 01:02:14,240
you know and god only knows what

1744
01:02:18,710 --> 01:02:15,920
happened there but

1745
01:02:23,029 --> 01:02:18,720
in any case demonetized right now there

1746
01:02:26,230 --> 01:02:24,470
combining

1747
01:02:27,190 --> 01:02:26,240
trying to make a hybrid

1748
01:02:30,069 --> 01:02:27,200
between

1749
01:02:32,789 --> 01:02:30,079
smallpox and

1750
01:02:34,950 --> 01:02:32,799
ebola what's that that does the ebola

1751
01:02:36,950 --> 01:02:34,960
right right right right

1752
01:02:39,109 --> 01:02:36,960
and then to make it deliverable in

1753
01:02:41,750 --> 01:02:39,119
aerosols

1754
01:02:44,470 --> 01:02:41,760
well how about maybe not

1755
01:02:46,549 --> 01:02:44,480
how about maybe we don't go there

1756
01:02:48,230 --> 01:02:46,559
you know and and scientists are making

1757
01:02:50,150 --> 01:02:48,240
decisions like that all the time because

1758
01:02:52,950 --> 01:02:50,160
there's an infinite number of facts to

1759
01:02:55,510 --> 01:02:52,960
study see this is the problem with the

1760
01:02:57,029 --> 01:02:55,520
pure science argument follow the science

1761
01:02:59,109 --> 01:02:57,039
it's like well there's an infinite

1762
01:03:01,190 --> 01:02:59,119
number of facts

1763
01:03:03,029 --> 01:03:01,200
this is a problem so science is all

1764
01:03:04,789 --> 01:03:03,039
about the facts yeah

1765
01:03:06,309 --> 01:03:04,799
which facts and then that gets us into

1766
01:03:08,470 --> 01:03:06,319
the post-modernist dilemma because the

1767
01:03:10,390 --> 01:03:08,480
post-modernists say only those facts

1768
01:03:12,470 --> 01:03:10,400
that serve the will to power and your

1769
01:03:15,430 --> 01:03:12,480
particular will to power that's just

1770
01:03:16,870 --> 01:03:15,440
very cynical way of looking at science

1771
01:03:18,950 --> 01:03:16,880
so

1772
01:03:21,510 --> 01:03:18,960
but but but there's still the question

1773
01:03:23,349 --> 01:03:21,520
there right something is directing this

1774
01:03:25,349 --> 01:03:23,359
some and something needs to be directing

1775
01:03:26,950 --> 01:03:25,359
this and and i would think harrison

1776
01:03:29,029 --> 01:03:26,960
weinstein and myself would all agree

1777
01:03:31,270 --> 01:03:29,039
that the pursuit of truth is of

1778
01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:31,280
exceptional importance and also that

1779
01:03:35,190 --> 01:03:33,119
there are methods for

1780
01:03:37,349 --> 01:03:35,200
distinguishing let's say

1781
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:37,359
material facts scientific facts from

1782
01:03:40,870 --> 01:03:39,119
ethical facts now that's where it gets

1783
01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:40,880
trickier and the relationship between

1784
01:03:44,630 --> 01:03:42,480
those two

1785
01:03:46,390 --> 01:03:44,640
i don't think you can look at the facts

1786
01:03:48,470 --> 01:03:46,400
except through an ethical framework i

1787
01:03:50,390 --> 01:03:48,480
don't think it's possible

1788
01:03:51,670 --> 01:03:50,400
the ethical framework is built into your

1789
01:03:53,510 --> 01:03:51,680
perception

1790
01:03:55,510 --> 01:03:53,520
i see you can't help it and the reason

1791
01:03:58,390 --> 01:03:55,520
for that it's it's technically quite

1792
01:03:59,630 --> 01:03:58,400
straightforward i believe is that we are

1793
01:04:02,710 --> 01:03:59,640
fundamentally

1794
01:04:05,670 --> 01:04:02,720
ambulatory and goal-directed creatures

1795
01:04:08,069 --> 01:04:05,680
we walk we move we're always moving from

1796
01:04:09,430 --> 01:04:08,079
point a to point b always no matter what

1797
01:04:11,750 --> 01:04:09,440
even when we're looking at something

1798
01:04:13,990 --> 01:04:11,760
it's in preparation for a movement to

1799
01:04:15,670 --> 01:04:14,000
someone bet somewhere better

1800
01:04:17,109 --> 01:04:15,680
you know unless we're trying actively to

1801
01:04:18,950 --> 01:04:17,119
make things worse but that's an

1802
01:04:21,190 --> 01:04:18,960
exceptional case

1803
01:04:23,109 --> 01:04:21,200
we can't help but look at the world

1804
01:04:24,549 --> 01:04:23,119
what we see is a map

1805
01:04:26,630 --> 01:04:24,559
that's a that's a good way of thinking

1806
01:04:28,870 --> 01:04:26,640
about it we don't see the world we see

1807
01:04:29,990 --> 01:04:28,880
our map of the world and we need a map

1808
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:30,000
because we have to walk through the

1809
01:04:32,710 --> 01:04:30,960
world

1810
01:04:35,829 --> 01:04:32,720
and we don't want to have things fall on

1811
01:04:38,870 --> 01:04:35,839
us etc we don't want to get lost

1812
01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:38,880
and so and then we we might infer

1813
01:04:43,990 --> 01:04:42,000
objects from the contents of our maps

1814
01:04:46,230 --> 01:04:44,000
and we might even say those objects are

1815
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:46,240
fundamentally real but then you know

1816
01:04:49,349 --> 01:04:47,760
that's a problem because the question

1817
01:04:53,510 --> 01:04:49,359
then arises well what do you mean by

1818
01:04:55,029 --> 01:04:53,520
real exactly and exactly why

1819
01:04:57,109 --> 01:04:55,039
and you know then sam would say well you

1820
01:04:58,950 --> 01:04:57,119
can derive what's real from science and

1821
01:05:00,950 --> 01:04:58,960
i would say well there's an infinite

1822
01:05:03,109 --> 01:05:00,960
number of facts sam how the hell do we

1823
01:05:05,670 --> 01:05:03,119
decide which facts to pursue and which

1824
01:05:06,710 --> 01:05:05,680
not to pursue and which we shouldn't

1825
01:05:08,470 --> 01:05:06,720
pursue

1826
01:05:09,829 --> 01:05:08,480
and you think here's something

1827
01:05:11,510 --> 01:05:09,839
interesting about the scientific

1828
01:05:13,589 --> 01:05:11,520
literature

1829
01:05:15,829 --> 01:05:13,599
you write a research report about your

1830
01:05:18,069 --> 01:05:15,839
experiment you almost never

1831
01:05:19,589 --> 01:05:18,079
tell the truth about why you got

1832
01:05:21,430 --> 01:05:19,599
interested in that

1833
01:05:23,109 --> 01:05:21,440
what you do is you lay out this rational

1834
01:05:24,789 --> 01:05:23,119
argument that led to your hypothesis

1835
01:05:27,109 --> 01:05:24,799
which isn't what led to your hypothesis

1836
01:05:28,950 --> 01:05:27,119
at all by the way it's just a summary

1837
01:05:30,630 --> 01:05:28,960
statement that other people could follow

1838
01:05:32,950 --> 01:05:30,640
it's not an actual description of what

1839
01:05:34,470 --> 01:05:32,960
happened you're interested in something

1840
01:05:36,549 --> 01:05:34,480
for some reason

1841
01:05:38,069 --> 01:05:36,559
and that shapes your hypothesis and the

1842
01:05:41,829 --> 01:05:38,079
direction of your research and that's

1843
01:05:43,190 --> 01:05:41,839
tied in with your own personal narrative

1844
01:05:45,349 --> 01:05:43,200
so

1845
01:05:46,789 --> 01:05:45,359
it bedevils the scientific enterprise

1846
01:05:49,109 --> 01:05:46,799
and it can be a real problem because

1847
01:05:50,950 --> 01:05:49,119
your own narrative can you know cloud

1848
01:05:53,829 --> 01:05:50,960
your judgment of the let's say the

1849
01:05:54,950 --> 01:05:53,839
relevant fact

1850
01:05:56,230 --> 01:05:54,960
so

1851
01:05:58,549 --> 01:05:56,240
the epitome of that is this

1852
01:06:01,430 --> 01:05:58,559
mathematician named romana jan have you

1853
01:06:02,870 --> 01:06:01,440
heard of ramanajan

1854
01:06:05,029 --> 01:06:02,880
yes

1855
01:06:07,430 --> 01:06:05,039
okay for those who haven't heard of him

1856
01:06:08,950 --> 01:06:07,440
he would come up through intuition or

1857
01:06:11,510 --> 01:06:08,960
through what he would say would be dream

1858
01:06:13,829 --> 01:06:11,520
encounters with gods or god it says

1859
01:06:15,670 --> 01:06:13,839
he would come up with what are

1860
01:06:16,829 --> 01:06:15,680
astounding

1861
01:06:18,470 --> 01:06:16,839
formulas

1862
01:06:20,470 --> 01:06:18,480
that

1863
01:06:22,870 --> 01:06:20,480
i remember i think it was hardy who was

1864
01:06:24,710 --> 01:06:22,880
the supervisor said you can't simply

1865
01:06:26,470 --> 01:06:24,720
make these up they're too baroque for

1866
01:06:27,829 --> 01:06:26,480
you to make them up and they turned out

1867
01:06:28,950 --> 01:06:27,839
to be correct and what you're saying is

1868
01:06:33,109 --> 01:06:28,960
well

1869
01:06:34,710 --> 01:06:33,119
that was one of the problems with him

1870
01:06:36,630 --> 01:06:34,720
what he would is that he would spit out

1871
01:06:37,990 --> 01:06:36,640
these formulas which in the end most of

1872
01:06:39,750 --> 01:06:38,000
the time turned out to be true slight

1873
01:06:41,589 --> 01:06:39,760
modifications of what's true and i'll

1874
01:06:43,109 --> 01:06:41,599
give an example if someone wants to if

1875
01:06:44,630 --> 01:06:43,119
someone can keep this in their head okay

1876
01:06:46,309 --> 01:06:44,640
so how many ways can you partition a

1877
01:06:48,710 --> 01:06:46,319
certain number so let's say 26 can be

1878
01:06:50,549 --> 01:06:48,720
written as 1 plus 1 plus 26 times or it

1879
01:06:52,630 --> 01:06:50,559
can be written as 1 plus 2 and then plus

1880
01:06:54,870 --> 01:06:52,640
1 1. so there are many many different

1881
01:06:56,230 --> 01:06:54,880
partitions of a natural number

1882
01:06:58,069 --> 01:06:56,240
he came up with this formula that the

1883
01:07:01,910 --> 01:06:58,079
number the partitions of any number

1884
01:07:03,190 --> 01:07:01,920
something like 1 over 2 pi square root 6

1885
01:07:05,430 --> 01:07:03,200
then you take the derivative of what's

1886
01:07:07,990 --> 01:07:05,440
happening here which is exponential

1887
01:07:10,390 --> 01:07:08,000
1 over 2 pi over square root of 6

1888
01:07:13,430 --> 01:07:10,400
square root of n minus 1 over 24 all

1889
01:07:15,670 --> 01:07:13,440
over square root of n minus 1 over 24.

1890
01:07:17,349 --> 01:07:15,680
and he couldn't neces now i'm not sure

1891
01:07:19,109 --> 01:07:17,359
about that particular one doesn't matter

1892
01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:19,119
this is an example he couldn't prove

1893
01:07:23,910 --> 01:07:21,599
them and he would say that he just

1894
01:07:25,029 --> 01:07:23,920
they just occurred to him

1895
01:07:26,870 --> 01:07:25,039
so

1896
01:07:28,390 --> 01:07:26,880
that to me is well i'm wondering well

1897
01:07:30,309 --> 01:07:28,400
that's a mystery there's no one else in

1898
01:07:31,750 --> 01:07:30,319
mathematics that was like that

1899
01:07:33,589 --> 01:07:31,760
and i'm not sure if that's because he

1900
01:07:35,190 --> 01:07:33,599
was terribly open like you mentioned

1901
01:07:36,789 --> 01:07:35,200
openness is a trait that allows you to

1902
01:07:38,870 --> 01:07:36,799
have this these

1903
01:07:40,789 --> 01:07:38,880
large leaps of insight i'm not sure if

1904
01:07:44,390 --> 01:07:40,799
that's exactly why it could be

1905
01:07:49,510 --> 01:07:46,549
yeah well you know the the

1906
01:07:51,589 --> 01:07:49,520
the the depths of what inspires us are

1907
01:07:53,670 --> 01:07:51,599
that's a great mystery right i mean one

1908
01:07:56,069 --> 01:07:53,680
of the mysteries of the scientific

1909
01:07:58,150 --> 01:07:56,079
enterprise for example is hypothesis

1910
01:08:00,549 --> 01:07:58,160
generation you know when we train

1911
01:08:01,510 --> 01:08:00,559
graduate students we we spend a lot of

1912
01:08:02,870 --> 01:08:01,520
time

1913
01:08:05,670 --> 01:08:02,880
training them in

1914
01:08:07,430 --> 01:08:05,680
method let's say and approach and then

1915
01:08:09,430 --> 01:08:07,440
writing scientific papers and so on but

1916
01:08:12,470 --> 01:08:09,440
there's almost no

1917
01:08:16,550 --> 01:08:15,109
pedagogy in relationship to hypothesis

1918
01:08:18,229 --> 01:08:16,560
generation well where do you come up

1919
01:08:20,470 --> 01:08:18,239
with your research questions to begin

1920
01:08:21,910 --> 01:08:20,480
with well i'm interested in that it's

1921
01:08:23,510 --> 01:08:21,920
like well that's really not much of an

1922
01:08:26,070 --> 01:08:23,520
answer it's certainly not formalized

1923
01:08:28,229 --> 01:08:26,080
very well what what is that interest

1924
01:08:29,829 --> 01:08:28,239
exactly and how does it guide you

1925
01:08:32,149 --> 01:08:29,839
exactly and

1926
01:08:33,829 --> 01:08:32,159
what is that and then you might say well

1927
01:08:35,590 --> 01:08:33,839
and also how is that related to your

1928
01:08:37,189 --> 01:08:35,600
morality like to what degree is your

1929
01:08:39,590 --> 01:08:37,199
scientific

1930
01:08:42,149 --> 01:08:39,600
curiosity motivated by your own personal

1931
01:08:44,149 --> 01:08:42,159
desire for success or maybe the desire

1932
01:08:45,030 --> 01:08:44,159
to serve others you know on the virtuous

1933
01:08:48,149 --> 01:08:45,040
side

1934
01:08:49,990 --> 01:08:48,159
etc etc well that's just

1935
01:08:51,349 --> 01:08:50,000
that's just often the domain of well we

1936
01:08:52,470 --> 01:08:51,359
don't ask those questions when we're

1937
01:08:54,870 --> 01:08:52,480
scientists

1938
01:08:56,630 --> 01:08:54,880
and fair enough in some sense but not

1939
01:08:58,709 --> 01:08:56,640
really because well you do run the kind

1940
01:09:02,309 --> 01:08:58,719
of problems you just described

1941
01:09:03,990 --> 01:09:02,319
you know i work with this carver um

1942
01:09:06,309 --> 01:09:04,000
he's a member of uh

1943
01:09:08,709 --> 01:09:06,319
native canadian tribe no it's charles

1944
01:09:11,749 --> 01:09:08,719
joseph is his name and he's quite a

1945
01:09:14,550 --> 01:09:11,759
remarkable person and he carves these

1946
01:09:20,390 --> 01:09:14,560
traditional west coast native canadian

1947
01:09:22,950 --> 01:09:20,400
quack quack sculptures and he dreams

1948
01:09:24,709 --> 01:09:22,960
in those images

1949
01:09:26,470 --> 01:09:24,719
and he consults with

1950
01:09:28,630 --> 01:09:26,480
the spirits of his father and

1951
01:09:31,430 --> 01:09:28,640
grandfather great grandfather in

1952
01:09:33,749 --> 01:09:31,440
particular in his dreams about his

1953
01:09:35,189 --> 01:09:33,759
carvings and he doesn't talk about that

1954
01:09:37,349 --> 01:09:35,199
with anyone because they think he's

1955
01:09:39,590 --> 01:09:37,359
crazy but he's not

1956
01:09:42,070 --> 01:09:39,600
he's definitely not

1957
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:42,080
and he's a great artist in my estimation

1958
01:09:46,550 --> 01:09:44,400
unbelievably creative and that his

1959
01:09:48,870 --> 01:09:46,560
creative process is so

1960
01:09:51,669 --> 01:09:48,880
unique that

1961
01:09:53,269 --> 01:09:51,679
well it's remarkable to listen to him

1962
01:09:55,510 --> 01:09:53,279
you know and he's the inheritor of an

1963
01:09:56,790 --> 01:09:55,520
unbroken tradition that stems back

1964
01:10:00,310 --> 01:09:56,800
perhaps

1965
01:10:03,830 --> 01:10:02,310
yep you brought that up to krauss that

1966
01:10:05,030 --> 01:10:03,840
the science well you said science is

1967
01:10:06,310 --> 01:10:05,040
nested within

1968
01:10:08,550 --> 01:10:06,320
what you would consider to be the

1969
01:10:10,229 --> 01:10:08,560
religious domain and you could give an

1970
01:10:12,070 --> 01:10:10,239
example by motivation what do you what

1971
01:10:13,990 --> 01:10:12,080
motivates you to pursue a certain

1972
01:10:16,070 --> 01:10:14,000
direction so sure once you've gotten to

1973
01:10:18,229 --> 01:10:16,080
that direction it's then a scientific

1974
01:10:19,750 --> 01:10:18,239
and then he said well look you can't can

1975
01:10:21,110 --> 01:10:19,760
you point to me

1976
01:10:23,590 --> 01:10:21,120
any

1977
01:10:25,430 --> 01:10:23,600
fact let's say that the religious has

1978
01:10:27,030 --> 01:10:25,440
come up with something like that he said

1979
01:10:29,110 --> 01:10:27,040
and or knowledge and then the question

1980
01:10:31,590 --> 01:10:29,120
was well what does one mean by knowledge

1981
01:10:33,830 --> 01:10:31,600
and to me it's it's a soulless way of

1982
01:10:35,350 --> 01:10:33,840
looking at the world they devoided the

1983
01:10:37,030 --> 01:10:35,360
world of soul to begin with and then

1984
01:10:38,790 --> 01:10:37,040
wonder where is the soul so it's like

1985
01:10:40,470 --> 01:10:38,800
you've watched someone you take it take

1986
01:10:43,350 --> 01:10:40,480
right now you if i go there and i open

1987
01:10:45,910 --> 01:10:43,360
up the fridge and i and i say to you or

1988
01:10:47,430 --> 01:10:45,920
you say hey kurt had kurt had some soul

1989
01:10:49,189 --> 01:10:47,440
that made him get up and go to the

1990
01:10:51,189 --> 01:10:49,199
fridge and then they say well where what

1991
01:10:53,110 --> 01:10:51,199
pixel where was that soul at what point

1992
01:10:54,790 --> 01:10:53,120
when his fingers touched the fridge did

1993
01:10:57,110 --> 01:10:54,800
the soul come in well the soul was

1994
01:10:58,630 --> 01:10:57,120
behind that sure at the lowest level it

1995
01:11:02,310 --> 01:10:58,640
wasn't but the soul is somewhere at the

1996
01:11:05,270 --> 01:11:03,510
yeah well they

1997
01:11:07,030 --> 01:11:05,280
look i mean i think it's perfectly

1998
01:11:10,149 --> 01:11:07,040
reasonable to point out that there's no

1999
01:11:11,590 --> 01:11:10,159
spirit in science in some sense

2000
01:11:14,229 --> 01:11:11,600
because we chased it out when we

2001
01:11:16,709 --> 01:11:14,239
developed a scientific methodology right

2002
01:11:18,149 --> 01:11:16,719
and there may be an equation

2003
01:11:19,910 --> 01:11:18,159
it's a related

2004
01:11:21,990 --> 01:11:19,920
it is a related problem i'm going to

2005
01:11:24,070 --> 01:11:22,000
talk to penrose by the way also when i

2006
01:11:24,870 --> 01:11:24,080
go to oh wonderful and about that

2007
01:11:27,350 --> 01:11:24,880
because

2008
01:11:29,189 --> 01:11:27,360
penrose thinks that consciousness is not

2009
01:11:31,830 --> 01:11:29,199
computational and i don't understand why

2010
01:11:34,390 --> 01:11:31,840
he thinks that i mean i'm talking to

2011
01:11:37,270 --> 01:11:34,400
computer engineers who are building

2012
01:11:40,950 --> 01:11:37,280
ai brains fundamentally and they're

2013
01:11:43,189 --> 01:11:40,960
quite confident if you like

2014
01:11:45,030 --> 01:11:43,199
hey go right ahead sure sure so i've

2015
01:11:46,149 --> 01:11:45,040
studied penrose and spoken to his

2016
01:11:49,990 --> 01:11:46,159
partner

2017
01:11:51,830 --> 01:11:50,000
stuart hameroff on the podcast

2018
01:11:53,350 --> 01:11:51,840
so the reason penrose fundamentally

2019
01:11:54,630 --> 01:11:53,360
thinks that it's not computational is

2020
01:11:56,550 --> 01:11:54,640
because of girdles and completeness

2021
01:11:57,910 --> 01:11:56,560
theorem the fact that so if it's

2022
01:11:59,590 --> 01:11:57,920
computational in some sense that means

2023
01:12:01,430 --> 01:11:59,600
it's a first-order language now because

2024
01:12:03,910 --> 01:12:01,440
of girdles and completeness theorem we

2025
01:12:05,510 --> 01:12:03,920
can generate a proposition that we see

2026
01:12:07,510 --> 01:12:05,520
as true but the force first order

2027
01:12:09,590 --> 01:12:07,520
language cannot see that it's true and

2028
01:12:11,430 --> 01:12:09,600
this can happen over and over again

2029
01:12:13,510 --> 01:12:11,440
they actually accept that interpretation

2030
01:12:15,990 --> 01:12:13,520
of goodell's incompleteness theorem

2031
01:12:18,149 --> 01:12:16,000
because i proposed that in my book maps

2032
01:12:20,149 --> 01:12:18,159
of meaning and a number of philosoph

2033
01:12:21,830 --> 01:12:20,159
philosophical critics have said that i

2034
01:12:23,990 --> 01:12:21,840
misunderstood that

2035
01:12:25,669 --> 01:12:24,000
that incompleteness theorem that didn't

2036
01:12:27,910 --> 01:12:25,679
have any application in the domain of

2037
01:12:29,510 --> 01:12:27,920
philosophical inquiry but i thought it

2038
01:12:31,430 --> 01:12:29,520
was also an argument about first

2039
01:12:33,270 --> 01:12:31,440
principles that any internally coherent

2040
01:12:34,550 --> 01:12:33,280
system had to be predicated on axioms

2041
01:12:36,550 --> 01:12:34,560
that weren't provable from within the

2042
01:12:39,030 --> 01:12:36,560
confines of the system

2043
01:12:40,550 --> 01:12:39,040
and so that's part of penrose's issue

2044
01:12:43,270 --> 01:12:40,560
here is it it's the first principle

2045
01:12:46,470 --> 01:12:45,030
yeah now i'm unsure exactly what you

2046
01:12:47,510 --> 01:12:46,480
said in maps and meaning that would make

2047
01:12:55,030 --> 01:12:47,520
a

2048
01:12:55,990 --> 01:12:55,040
goodell's incompleteness theorem which i

2049
01:12:57,750 --> 01:12:56,000
might have because i'm not a

2050
01:12:59,750 --> 01:12:57,760
mathematician but that even if i did

2051
01:13:01,510 --> 01:12:59,760
understand it it wasn't appropriate to

2052
01:13:03,350 --> 01:13:01,520
apply it to like systems of

2053
01:13:05,430 --> 01:13:03,360
philosophical inquiry outside the strict

2054
01:13:07,669 --> 01:13:05,440
domain of mathematics and

2055
01:13:09,350 --> 01:13:07,679
that was their criticism but and i've

2056
01:13:10,870 --> 01:13:09,360
always been so leery about that because

2057
01:13:12,630 --> 01:13:10,880
i was kind of outside my domain of

2058
01:13:15,110 --> 01:13:12,640
expertise when i incorporated that

2059
01:13:17,189 --> 01:13:15,120
argument but it did look to me like it

2060
01:13:19,830 --> 01:13:17,199
it was this it was a statement i think

2061
01:13:21,910 --> 01:13:19,840
what godel goodell meant was that

2062
01:13:23,669 --> 01:13:21,920
there you can't have a system of usable

2063
01:13:25,830 --> 01:13:23,679
thought in some sense that isn't

2064
01:13:27,990 --> 01:13:25,840
predicated on axioms that stand outside

2065
01:13:29,270 --> 01:13:28,000
the system

2066
01:13:32,950 --> 01:13:29,280
uh-huh

2067
01:13:34,950 --> 01:13:32,960
article of yours about a year or two

2068
01:13:37,030 --> 01:13:34,960
years maybe even three years ago about

2069
01:13:38,470 --> 01:13:37,040
girdles and completeness theorem and god

2070
01:13:40,149 --> 01:13:38,480
how girdles and completeness there in

2071
01:13:41,510 --> 01:13:40,159
some sense proves god and then when i

2072
01:13:43,350 --> 01:13:41,520
was searching for it again i couldn't

2073
01:13:45,510 --> 01:13:43,360
find it do you recall writing an article

2074
01:13:47,030 --> 01:13:45,520
about it i don't think no no i don't

2075
01:13:48,709 --> 01:13:47,040
think i made that no i don't think i

2076
01:13:50,310 --> 01:13:48,719
made that argument

2077
01:13:53,910 --> 01:13:50,320
so

2078
01:13:57,270 --> 01:13:53,920
but i could ask penrose about that yeah

2079
01:13:59,189 --> 01:13:57,280
very sure yeah well it it the uh the uh

2080
01:14:01,510 --> 01:13:59,199
the question if that interpretation is

2081
01:14:04,550 --> 01:14:01,520
correct and if this is the issue that

2082
01:14:06,149 --> 01:14:04,560
that penrose is trying to uh uh solve

2083
01:14:08,550 --> 01:14:06,159
i'd be very interested in that so thank

2084
01:14:11,110 --> 01:14:08,560
you for that because i'll ask him but

2085
01:14:13,030 --> 01:14:11,120
the the fact that there have to see i

2086
01:14:15,830 --> 01:14:13,040
think there have to be axioms outside

2087
01:14:17,510 --> 01:14:15,840
the system say the propositional system

2088
01:14:18,550 --> 01:14:17,520
because something has to fill in the

2089
01:14:21,189 --> 01:14:18,560
gaps

2090
01:14:22,870 --> 01:14:21,199
that our ignorance leaves

2091
01:14:24,310 --> 01:14:22,880
because we have to map the world but we

2092
01:14:26,229 --> 01:14:24,320
can't because we're ignorant and so what

2093
01:14:29,669 --> 01:14:26,239
do we do well we have assumptions and

2094
01:14:31,910 --> 01:14:29,679
even our perceptions are assumptions

2095
01:14:33,030 --> 01:14:31,920
you know for example i'm i'm watching

2096
01:14:35,430 --> 01:14:33,040
you and

2097
01:14:37,189 --> 01:14:35,440
i'm acting as if what you're doing is

2098
01:14:39,910 --> 01:14:37,199
telling me the truth

2099
01:14:41,990 --> 01:14:39,920
but that's an assumption

2100
01:14:44,470 --> 01:14:42,000
now it could be a generous assumption it

2101
01:14:46,229 --> 01:14:44,480
could be a necessary assumption but

2102
01:14:48,229 --> 01:14:46,239
a lot there are going to be times when

2103
01:14:50,550 --> 01:14:48,239
that assumption which is a perceptual

2104
01:14:52,709 --> 01:14:50,560
act because i see you that way right in

2105
01:14:53,990 --> 01:14:52,719
the broader sense of seeing

2106
01:14:55,990 --> 01:14:54,000
there's going to be times when that's

2107
01:14:57,270 --> 01:14:56,000
wrong because i'm talking to someone who

2108
01:14:58,470 --> 01:14:57,280
isn't telling me the truth because they

2109
01:14:59,990 --> 01:14:58,480
don't know what they're talking about

2110
01:15:01,830 --> 01:15:00,000
let's say that's ignorance or maybe

2111
01:15:04,070 --> 01:15:01,840
they're being malevolent

2112
01:15:06,070 --> 01:15:04,080
so we fill in the gaps between our

2113
01:15:08,149 --> 01:15:06,080
propositional knowledge and the

2114
01:15:09,430 --> 01:15:08,159
infinitely complex world with

2115
01:15:13,830 --> 01:15:09,440
presumptions

2116
01:15:17,430 --> 01:15:13,840
perception so i think of perceptions as

2117
01:15:20,709 --> 01:15:17,440
the axioms of propositional thought

2118
01:15:25,110 --> 01:15:23,189
because thought is about something right

2119
01:15:26,630 --> 01:15:25,120
yeah penrose is what penrose would come

2120
01:15:28,310 --> 01:15:26,640
from

2121
01:15:29,590 --> 01:15:28,320
maybe it's adjacent but an alternate

2122
01:15:31,270 --> 01:15:29,600
route that

2123
01:15:34,229 --> 01:15:31,280
is about understanding the fact that we

2124
01:15:35,750 --> 01:15:34,239
can understand a statement to be true

2125
01:15:37,990 --> 01:15:35,760
and it came from a first order language

2126
01:15:40,630 --> 01:15:38,000
but that first order language cannot see

2127
01:15:41,990 --> 01:15:40,640
that it's true that we understand it

2128
01:15:43,590 --> 01:15:42,000
implies that what we're doing is not

2129
01:15:44,870 --> 01:15:43,600
computational and the reason is that

2130
01:15:46,870 --> 01:15:44,880
let's imagine we could find the

2131
01:15:47,830 --> 01:15:46,880
computational

2132
01:15:49,669 --> 01:15:47,840
see

2133
01:15:51,750 --> 01:15:49,679
this guy named stephen wolfram who

2134
01:15:53,030 --> 01:15:51,760
believes that what underlies reality

2135
01:15:54,390 --> 01:15:53,040
something like hyper graphs and then

2136
01:15:56,550 --> 01:15:54,400
there's a computation there's a rule

2137
01:15:58,630 --> 01:15:56,560
that there's rule of there's a system of

2138
01:16:00,550 --> 01:15:58,640
rewriting

2139
01:16:02,630 --> 01:16:00,560
now that's akin to a first order

2140
01:16:04,550 --> 01:16:02,640
language however there would be let's

2141
01:16:06,149 --> 01:16:04,560
imagine that's the case at the

2142
01:16:07,830 --> 01:16:06,159
at the fundamental of physics is

2143
01:16:09,750 --> 01:16:07,840
something like a rule generation process

2144
01:16:11,270 --> 01:16:09,760
that's like a first-order language well

2145
01:16:13,030 --> 01:16:11,280
then we can

2146
01:16:14,870 --> 01:16:13,040
find a rule sorry we can find a

2147
01:16:17,990 --> 01:16:14,880
statement that this rule cannot see as

2148
01:16:19,510 --> 01:16:18,000
being true but then we see it as true

2149
01:16:21,030 --> 01:16:19,520
so how is it that we could be generated

2150
01:16:22,709 --> 01:16:21,040
by this for if we're embedded in the

2151
01:16:24,229 --> 01:16:22,719
first order language how is it that we

2152
01:16:25,990 --> 01:16:24,239
can see what how is it that we can

2153
01:16:28,950 --> 01:16:26,000
understand that to be true when we're

2154
01:16:31,590 --> 01:16:28,960
generated by it okay so so let me okay

2155
01:16:34,070 --> 01:16:31,600
so that was part of the reason that jung

2156
01:16:36,630 --> 01:16:34,080
hypothesized the existence of a

2157
01:16:39,189 --> 01:16:36,640
transcendent self

2158
01:16:40,350 --> 01:16:39,199
so imagine that as you go through the

2159
01:16:43,430 --> 01:16:40,360
different

2160
01:16:45,590 --> 01:16:43,440
manifestations of your personality in

2161
01:16:48,790 --> 01:16:45,600
your life you know you say i radically

2162
01:16:50,709 --> 01:16:48,800
changed at some point

2163
01:16:52,950 --> 01:16:50,719
you look at retrospectively and you say

2164
01:16:56,790 --> 01:16:52,960
are radically changed well imagine that

2165
01:17:01,590 --> 01:17:00,310
map systems that you identify with you

2166
01:17:03,270 --> 01:17:01,600
say that's me

2167
01:17:05,030 --> 01:17:03,280
your ego identifies with them you say

2168
01:17:07,990 --> 01:17:05,040
that's me but then that changes

2169
01:17:09,910 --> 01:17:08,000
radically and maybe you fall into chaos

2170
01:17:11,590 --> 01:17:09,920
when it changes because you you lose

2171
01:17:13,669 --> 01:17:11,600
your belief and then a new belief

2172
01:17:15,430 --> 01:17:13,679
emerges out well it emerges out of

2173
01:17:17,990 --> 01:17:15,440
something underneath

2174
01:17:20,790 --> 01:17:18,000
and so jung posited that part of what

2175
01:17:23,350 --> 01:17:20,800
the self was was the thing that remained

2176
01:17:25,750 --> 01:17:23,360
constant across transformations

2177
01:17:28,550 --> 01:17:25,760
and actually guided them in some sense

2178
01:17:30,390 --> 01:17:28,560
now young also believed that christ

2179
01:17:34,149 --> 01:17:30,400
technically speaking psychologically

2180
01:17:35,750 --> 01:17:34,159
speaking was a symbol of the self

2181
01:17:37,990 --> 01:17:35,760
and that's partly why the death and

2182
01:17:41,030 --> 01:17:38,000
redemption idea rings true with us

2183
01:17:43,189 --> 01:17:41,040
because we all go through partial deaths

2184
01:17:44,630 --> 01:17:43,199
and descents into sometimes into hell

2185
01:17:46,870 --> 01:17:44,640
you know when everything falls apart

2186
01:17:48,870 --> 01:17:46,880
around you you know to think about that

2187
01:17:50,550 --> 01:17:48,880
as a descent into hell it's perfectly

2188
01:17:52,550 --> 01:17:50,560
reasonable metaphorical statement it

2189
01:17:53,910 --> 01:17:52,560
certainly feels like an eternity when

2190
01:17:56,470 --> 01:17:53,920
you're there

2191
01:17:58,229 --> 01:17:56,480
and in some sense that domain has always

2192
01:18:00,550 --> 01:17:58,239
existed right across the span of

2193
01:18:02,870 --> 01:18:00,560
humanity and it's a place you can go

2194
01:18:05,510 --> 01:18:02,880
it's also a place that deceit is very

2195
01:18:08,390 --> 01:18:05,520
likely to take you because it makes your

2196
01:18:13,510 --> 01:18:11,030
presumption systems very fragile and

2197
01:18:15,189 --> 01:18:13,520
much more likely to degenerate into a

2198
01:18:17,590 --> 01:18:15,199
chaotic hell

2199
01:18:19,350 --> 01:18:17,600
in any case the self is the thing that's

2200
01:18:21,350 --> 01:18:19,360
underneath that that remains constant

2201
01:18:22,709 --> 01:18:21,360
but also the thing that guides those

2202
01:18:24,470 --> 01:18:22,719
transformations and even more

2203
01:18:26,550 --> 01:18:24,480
importantly in some sense it's the thing

2204
01:18:28,550 --> 01:18:26,560
that gives us the intuitions that guides

2205
01:18:32,470 --> 01:18:28,560
those transformations towards a higher

2206
01:18:34,310 --> 01:18:32,480
order form of unity and completion

2207
01:18:35,990 --> 01:18:34,320
and then you could say maybe that we're

2208
01:18:37,910 --> 01:18:36,000
manifesting you and i are trying to

2209
01:18:39,830 --> 01:18:37,920
manifest that spirit in this dialogue

2210
01:18:42,709 --> 01:18:39,840
because we're trying to modify each

2211
01:18:45,189 --> 01:18:42,719
other's proximal constructions to move

2212
01:18:47,350 --> 01:18:45,199
them towards a more accurate and valid

2213
01:18:49,430 --> 01:18:47,360
position and that we're

2214
01:18:51,430 --> 01:18:49,440
very engaged when that's happening

2215
01:18:52,950 --> 01:18:51,440
because it's so vital

2216
01:18:54,790 --> 01:18:52,960
when you know we go away and we think

2217
01:18:56,790 --> 01:18:54,800
that was a good conversation that was a

2218
01:18:58,790 --> 01:18:56,800
deep conversation we really got

2219
01:19:00,310 --> 01:18:58,800
somewhere something like that that

2220
01:19:02,470 --> 01:19:00,320
metaphor

2221
01:19:05,990 --> 01:19:02,480
we can't simply use engagement as a

2222
01:19:07,590 --> 01:19:06,000
barometer or as a marker of

2223
01:19:09,270 --> 01:19:07,600
of following this value system because

2224
01:19:12,070 --> 01:19:09,280
some people can be engaged heavily so

2225
01:19:13,430 --> 01:19:12,080
when murdering people yeah well one of

2226
01:19:15,189 --> 01:19:13,440
the things i would

2227
01:19:17,030 --> 01:19:15,199
one of the things i warned people about

2228
01:19:19,189 --> 01:19:17,040
in maps of meaning was

2229
01:19:21,189 --> 01:19:19,199
if you lie enough

2230
01:19:23,189 --> 01:19:21,199
you will warp corrupt implicit

2231
01:19:25,030 --> 01:19:23,199
structures that guide your interest and

2232
01:19:27,189 --> 01:19:25,040
then you won't be able to rely on it and

2233
01:19:29,510 --> 01:19:27,199
then you're lost because you imagine if

2234
01:19:31,830 --> 01:19:29,520
you couldn't rely on your instinct for

2235
01:19:33,350 --> 01:19:31,840
meaning because you'd corrupted it

2236
01:19:35,350 --> 01:19:33,360
what are you going to do i think that's

2237
01:19:36,950 --> 01:19:35,360
the sin against the holy ghost you know

2238
01:19:39,830 --> 01:19:36,960
fundamentally

2239
01:19:41,910 --> 01:19:39,840
you can't recover from that

2240
01:19:43,430 --> 01:19:41,920
you're speaking my language

2241
01:19:45,030 --> 01:19:43,440
i'm i'm liking what you're saying it

2242
01:19:47,189 --> 01:19:45,040
reminds me of it's like we have a

2243
01:19:51,270 --> 01:19:47,199
compass and every time every lie is a

2244
01:19:53,350 --> 01:19:51,280
dis equilibrium a just it makes it

2245
01:19:55,270 --> 01:19:53,360
not fro and makes it not operate

2246
01:19:56,790 --> 01:19:55,280
properly and so

2247
01:19:59,270 --> 01:19:56,800
that's one reason to not tell a line

2248
01:20:00,870 --> 01:19:59,280
what's interesting though is that if you

2249
01:20:01,910 --> 01:20:00,880
if you've corrupted your compass and the

2250
01:20:03,510 --> 01:20:01,920
compass should hopefully lead you

2251
01:20:05,510 --> 01:20:03,520
somewhere positive and that depends on

2252
01:20:06,870 --> 01:20:05,520
if you're aiming positively

2253
01:20:08,310 --> 01:20:06,880
then

2254
01:20:11,750 --> 01:20:08,320
telling the truth

2255
01:20:17,110 --> 01:20:15,270
yes i well look psychotherapy i kind of

2256
01:20:19,430 --> 01:20:17,120
developed this idea when i went down i

2257
01:20:21,750 --> 01:20:19,440
did my first public talk at a bucknell

2258
01:20:23,990 --> 01:20:21,760
university about a month ago and

2259
01:20:25,430 --> 01:20:24,000
one of the things that i've been writing

2260
01:20:28,629 --> 01:20:25,440
about is

2261
01:20:30,070 --> 01:20:28,639
that the psychotherapeutic presumption

2262
01:20:32,390 --> 01:20:30,080
so the first presumption is that there

2263
01:20:34,070 --> 01:20:32,400
is such a thing as psychotherapy the

2264
01:20:36,270 --> 01:20:34,080
second presumption is that it can lead

2265
01:20:37,910 --> 01:20:36,280
you to a state of increased

2266
01:20:38,790 --> 01:20:37,920
psychophysiological well-being and

2267
01:20:40,310 --> 01:20:38,800
health

2268
01:20:41,669 --> 01:20:40,320
so wait why is there a first let's say

2269
01:20:43,110 --> 01:20:41,679
the first assumption necessary what do

2270
01:20:44,709 --> 01:20:43,120
you mean that there is such a thing as

2271
01:20:46,709 --> 01:20:44,719
psychotherapy well you could just say

2272
01:20:48,310 --> 01:20:46,719
that it's just rubbish

2273
01:20:50,870 --> 01:20:48,320
right i mean when freud first came out

2274
01:20:52,950 --> 01:20:50,880
and said well talking can cure people

2275
01:20:55,270 --> 01:20:52,960
you know that was a pretty preposterous

2276
01:20:58,229 --> 01:20:55,280
claim no one believed it how can

2277
01:21:00,149 --> 01:20:58,239
just talking you know heal it's like

2278
01:21:01,590 --> 01:21:00,159
while talking is thinking you don't

2279
01:21:03,669 --> 01:21:01,600
think thinking has anything to do with

2280
01:21:06,229 --> 01:21:03,679
your psychophysiology and what freud did

2281
01:21:07,910 --> 01:21:06,239
was have people just talk they could say

2282
01:21:09,270 --> 01:21:07,920
anything he didn't even like that's why

2283
01:21:11,910 --> 01:21:09,280
they laid on the couch and didn't see

2284
01:21:13,590 --> 01:21:11,920
him it was like say anything that comes

2285
01:21:14,950 --> 01:21:13,600
into your mind

2286
01:21:16,790 --> 01:21:14,960
okay so

2287
01:21:18,550 --> 01:21:16,800
well essentially what you're doing is

2288
01:21:21,030 --> 01:21:18,560
telling the truth to yourself in an

2289
01:21:22,310 --> 01:21:21,040
untrembled manner now

2290
01:21:24,790 --> 01:21:22,320
now people

2291
01:21:26,709 --> 01:21:24,800
think by talking most people think by

2292
01:21:28,310 --> 01:21:26,719
talking you have to be a pretty good

2293
01:21:30,149 --> 01:21:28,320
thinker before you can think without

2294
01:21:32,950 --> 01:21:30,159
having to talk and really what you have

2295
01:21:35,590 --> 01:21:32,960
to do is talk to yourself in your head

2296
01:21:37,590 --> 01:21:35,600
you know you have the revelatory part of

2297
01:21:39,669 --> 01:21:37,600
thought which is your ideas and then you

2298
01:21:41,350 --> 01:21:39,679
engage in dialectical criticism

2299
01:21:43,189 --> 01:21:41,360
internally it's internalized

2300
01:21:45,830 --> 01:21:43,199
conversation and you have to be pretty

2301
01:21:47,030 --> 01:21:45,840
sophisticated to be really good at that

2302
01:21:49,270 --> 01:21:47,040
you have to be willing to divide

2303
01:21:50,870 --> 01:21:49,280
yourself into at least two parts and you

2304
01:21:52,950 --> 01:21:50,880
have to be able to do that most people

2305
01:21:55,510 --> 01:21:52,960
do that by talking so they reveal what

2306
01:21:57,590 --> 01:21:55,520
they think to themselves by talking

2307
01:21:59,990 --> 01:21:57,600
and then having said what they say they

2308
01:22:01,350 --> 01:22:00,000
can you know take it or leave it then

2309
01:22:02,790 --> 01:22:01,360
they start to just

2310
01:22:03,750 --> 01:22:02,800
distinguish between the wheat and the

2311
01:22:05,229 --> 01:22:03,760
chaff

2312
01:22:07,270 --> 01:22:05,239
and that can be so is

2313
01:22:09,910 --> 01:22:07,280
psychotherapeutically curative and

2314
01:22:13,350 --> 01:22:09,920
certainly people like carl rogers placed

2315
01:22:15,510 --> 01:22:13,360
a tremendous emphasis on both truth as

2316
01:22:17,270 --> 01:22:15,520
the curative process in psychotherapy

2317
01:22:19,750 --> 01:22:17,280
but also the

2318
01:22:21,270 --> 01:22:19,760
necessity for the psychotherapist

2319
01:22:23,669 --> 01:22:21,280
him or herself

2320
01:22:25,830 --> 01:22:23,679
to essentially act out something like

2321
01:22:27,590 --> 01:22:25,840
the role of christ i mean rogers was

2322
01:22:28,629 --> 01:22:27,600
extremely influenced by protestant

2323
01:22:30,550 --> 01:22:28,639
thinking i mean he was going to

2324
01:22:32,870 --> 01:22:30,560
evangelize the world when he was a kid

2325
01:22:34,310 --> 01:22:32,880
but he became agnostic or atheistic but

2326
01:22:37,110 --> 01:22:34,320
it all stuck

2327
01:22:38,950 --> 01:22:37,120
so the idea was if if i listen to you in

2328
01:22:41,990 --> 01:22:38,960
the right spirit

2329
01:22:43,110 --> 01:22:42,000
you can reveal truth to yourself that

2330
01:22:45,830 --> 01:22:43,120
will

2331
01:22:47,350 --> 01:22:45,840
reconstitute you and redeem you that's

2332
01:22:50,870 --> 01:22:47,360
basically the whole premise of

2333
01:22:53,590 --> 01:22:50,880
psychotherapy and it works you know and

2334
01:22:56,229 --> 01:22:53,600
mostly what i saw in psychotherapy i

2335
01:22:57,189 --> 01:22:56,239
practiced for 20 years was

2336
01:22:59,750 --> 01:22:57,199
we just

2337
01:23:01,669 --> 01:22:59,760
we got rid of a fair bit of ignorance

2338
01:23:03,030 --> 01:23:01,679
we did a fair bit of social skills

2339
01:23:04,870 --> 01:23:03,040
development like i taught a lot of

2340
01:23:06,310 --> 01:23:04,880
people how to shake hands and say hello

2341
01:23:08,390 --> 01:23:06,320
and introduce themselves because they

2342
01:23:09,750 --> 01:23:08,400
just didn't have those skills but a lot

2343
01:23:11,990 --> 01:23:09,760
of it was

2344
01:23:13,110 --> 01:23:12,000
let's find out the lies man and get rid

2345
01:23:14,550 --> 01:23:13,120
of them

2346
01:23:16,390 --> 01:23:14,560
and it's up to you to figure out what

2347
01:23:17,750 --> 01:23:16,400
the lies are all listen i'm not telling

2348
01:23:19,030 --> 01:23:17,760
you i don't know what your lies are i

2349
01:23:21,189 --> 01:23:19,040
don't know what lies you're tangled up

2350
01:23:23,030 --> 01:23:21,199
in i don't want to presume

2351
01:23:24,709 --> 01:23:23,040
yeah and i know some people who would

2352
01:23:28,550 --> 01:23:24,719
lie to their therapist because they're

2353
01:23:30,470 --> 01:23:28,560
too ashamed or for whatever reason and

2354
01:23:32,229 --> 01:23:30,480
some people ask me what am i advocating

2355
01:23:33,189 --> 01:23:32,239
for with this film blue better left

2356
01:23:35,430 --> 01:23:33,199
unsaid

2357
01:23:38,070 --> 01:23:35,440
and for me if i'm not advocating for

2358
01:23:39,669 --> 01:23:38,080
anything i'm not like well

2359
01:23:40,950 --> 01:23:39,679
be presumptuous for me to advocate would

2360
01:23:43,110 --> 01:23:40,960
it mean that i found something that i'm

2361
01:23:45,510 --> 01:23:43,120
trying to convince other people of

2362
01:23:47,830 --> 01:23:45,520
truly better leftman said was like a an

2363
01:23:49,669 --> 01:23:47,840
attempt for me to cohere and and

2364
01:23:51,270 --> 01:23:49,679
solidify my own thoughts development so

2365
01:23:53,510 --> 01:23:51,280
what did you teach what did it teach

2366
01:23:54,229 --> 01:23:53,520
what did it teach you

2367
01:23:56,629 --> 01:23:54,239
well

2368
01:23:58,950 --> 01:23:56,639
that's simply not easy

2369
01:24:00,229 --> 01:23:58,960
and you'll notice that i pause i tend to

2370
01:24:02,550 --> 01:24:00,239
pause before i think and one of the

2371
01:24:04,149 --> 01:24:02,560
reasons is that it's firstly i'm trying

2372
01:24:05,830 --> 01:24:04,159
to if it's something that i've said

2373
01:24:08,229 --> 01:24:05,840
before i try to say it in a different

2374
01:24:09,830 --> 01:24:08,239
manner and i'll give

2375
01:24:11,510 --> 01:24:09,840
well well one reason even if it's

2376
01:24:13,189 --> 01:24:11,520
synonyms even if i'm simply replacing

2377
01:24:14,709 --> 01:24:13,199
the words with synonyms and the reason

2378
01:24:18,390 --> 01:24:14,719
is that

2379
01:24:20,149 --> 01:24:18,400
for cognitive flexibility i think words

2380
01:24:21,750 --> 01:24:20,159
are like batons they allow you to reach

2381
01:24:23,270 --> 01:24:21,760
farther places like when you're rock

2382
01:24:25,590 --> 01:24:23,280
climbing they're like batons but

2383
01:24:27,590 --> 01:24:25,600
secondly because even if it's something

2384
01:24:30,070 --> 01:24:27,600
that is the same phenomenon when you

2385
01:24:31,669 --> 01:24:30,080
view it from a slightly different angle

2386
01:24:32,950 --> 01:24:31,679
you get a better understanding of what

2387
01:24:34,550 --> 01:24:32,960
it is

2388
01:24:36,390 --> 01:24:34,560
earlier we were talking about idolatry

2389
01:24:38,709 --> 01:24:36,400
and i think it's almost idolatry is akin

2390
01:24:41,270 --> 01:24:38,719
to mistaking the representation

2391
01:24:42,709 --> 01:24:41,280
for what's trying to be represented

2392
01:24:44,629 --> 01:24:42,719
so imagine this imagine that you have

2393
01:24:46,790 --> 01:24:44,639
and then insisting that that yeah and

2394
01:24:49,669 --> 01:24:46,800
insisting that that representation is in

2395
01:24:51,189 --> 01:24:49,679
fact the totality yeah

2396
01:24:54,229 --> 01:24:51,199
which means insisting that your

2397
01:24:56,550 --> 01:24:54,239
interpretation is the totality right the

2398
01:24:58,709 --> 01:24:56,560
satanic error

2399
01:25:01,110 --> 01:24:58,719
my interpretation is the totality it's

2400
01:25:01,990 --> 01:25:01,120
like oh really is it hmm good luck with

2401
01:25:03,430 --> 01:25:02,000
that

2402
01:25:04,870 --> 01:25:03,440
i'm super excited to talk to you about

2403
01:25:06,790 --> 01:25:04,880
the definitions of god and we'll get to

2404
01:25:08,870 --> 01:25:06,800
that at some point

2405
01:25:11,270 --> 01:25:08,880
so it would be like imagine if you have

2406
01:25:14,470 --> 01:25:13,110
an upside down ice cream cone so it

2407
01:25:17,189 --> 01:25:14,480
looks like this

2408
01:25:18,229 --> 01:25:17,199
i did not expect you to say that

2409
01:25:19,990 --> 01:25:18,239
all right if you look at it from the

2410
01:25:21,350 --> 01:25:20,000
bottom it's a circle if you look at it

2411
01:25:23,110 --> 01:25:21,360
from the tops also so if you look at it

2412
01:25:25,110 --> 01:25:23,120
from the side it's a triangle if you

2413
01:25:27,189 --> 01:25:25,120
look at it from let's say over here or

2414
01:25:29,110 --> 01:25:27,199
over here it looks like a teardrop and

2415
01:25:30,870 --> 01:25:29,120
so people when they're describing god

2416
01:25:32,709 --> 01:25:30,880
what i think they're trying to do is

2417
01:25:34,229 --> 01:25:32,719
it's an extremely it may be the most

2418
01:25:35,990 --> 01:25:34,239
complicated people say the brain is the

2419
01:25:37,830 --> 01:25:36,000
most complicated perhaps god is perhaps

2420
01:25:39,669 --> 01:25:37,840
that's one of the definitions of god but

2421
01:25:42,550 --> 01:25:39,679
maybe it's not that either way god is

2422
01:25:44,470 --> 01:25:42,560
complicated and so to say that well if

2423
01:25:46,070 --> 01:25:44,480
you look across religions it's

2424
01:25:48,070 --> 01:25:46,080
contradictory therefore what's being

2425
01:25:50,149 --> 01:25:48,080
described can't exist or only one of

2426
01:25:51,830 --> 01:25:50,159
them can be correct perhaps

2427
01:25:53,110 --> 01:25:51,840
now i'm not ecumenical enough to say

2428
01:25:55,590 --> 01:25:53,120
they're all correct in their own manner

2429
01:25:57,189 --> 01:25:55,600
i'm not under a tree meditating with

2430
01:25:59,189 --> 01:25:57,199
with flowers saying that everyone's

2431
01:26:00,070 --> 01:25:59,199
correct though that may actually be the

2432
01:26:01,830 --> 01:26:00,080
case

2433
01:26:03,590 --> 01:26:01,840
i'm saying that just because something

2434
01:26:06,070 --> 01:26:03,600
is contradictory doesn't mean that we

2435
01:26:07,350 --> 01:26:06,080
shouldn't explore it it may be akin to

2436
01:26:09,110 --> 01:26:07,360
different perspectives on the same

2437
01:26:10,950 --> 01:26:09,120
object i don't know if you've heard of m

2438
01:26:12,310 --> 01:26:10,960
theory it's a form of string theory

2439
01:26:14,070 --> 01:26:12,320
string theory says this because there

2440
01:26:17,430 --> 01:26:14,080
are five different flavors there's type

2441
01:26:20,709 --> 01:26:19,110
and it's actually posited that they're

2442
01:26:22,470 --> 01:26:20,719
all

2443
01:26:24,149 --> 01:26:22,480
not admirations of the same phenomenon

2444
01:26:25,750 --> 01:26:24,159
but actually different perspectives of

2445
01:26:27,590 --> 01:26:25,760
the same phenomenon

2446
01:26:28,950 --> 01:26:27,600
like you touch that this is obvious for

2447
01:26:30,470 --> 01:26:28,960
people to understand where the old

2448
01:26:31,830 --> 01:26:30,480
refrain if you touch an elephant's ear

2449
01:26:33,270 --> 01:26:31,840
touch an elephant's tail touch an

2450
01:26:36,310 --> 01:26:33,280
elephant and they're all described okay

2451
01:26:38,070 --> 01:26:36,320
so this is obvious to some people

2452
01:26:39,510 --> 01:26:38,080
i'm wondering if well i'm not wondering

2453
01:26:43,510 --> 01:26:39,520
i have a

2454
01:26:44,950 --> 01:26:43,520
descriptions of god even there's so many

2455
01:26:47,910 --> 01:26:44,960
contradictory statements between the

2456
01:26:49,590 --> 01:26:47,920
east and the west about god um how are

2457
01:26:51,830 --> 01:26:49,600
some of the east so this look they're

2458
01:26:54,390 --> 01:26:51,840
suffering in life there's also

2459
01:26:55,590 --> 01:26:54,400
extreme grace and love in life too but

2460
01:27:01,030 --> 01:26:55,600
one of the

2461
01:27:02,470 --> 01:27:01,040
so don't don't lie and then let's say

2462
01:27:03,990 --> 01:27:02,480
that's the west's answer then the other

2463
01:27:06,070 --> 01:27:04,000
answer is to realize that the suffering

2464
01:27:07,510 --> 01:27:06,080
is illusory so to do away with the coin

2465
01:27:09,189 --> 01:27:07,520
so one is that the coin look there's a

2466
01:27:10,950 --> 01:27:09,199
good side and a bad side so choose the

2467
01:27:13,910 --> 01:27:10,960
good that's the west and the east would

2468
01:27:15,350 --> 01:27:13,920
say well realize that there is no coin

2469
01:27:17,270 --> 01:27:15,360
and that's another solution and perhaps

2470
01:27:19,189 --> 01:27:17,280
somehow they're the same solution i've

2471
01:27:21,030 --> 01:27:19,199
heard you also i've heard you talk about

2472
01:27:23,510 --> 01:27:21,040
stumbling uphill and what lies at the

2473
01:27:25,350 --> 01:27:23,520
top of the hills maximal responsibility

2474
01:27:27,669 --> 01:27:25,360
is it is that all that lies at the top

2475
01:27:29,590 --> 01:27:27,679
of the hill or is it also

2476
01:27:30,550 --> 01:27:29,600
is it also warmth and forgiveness and

2477
01:27:32,790 --> 01:27:30,560
grace

2478
01:27:35,350 --> 01:27:32,800
and are those the same okay how are

2479
01:27:37,430 --> 01:27:35,360
those the same okay let's

2480
01:27:40,149 --> 01:27:37,440
let's think about this yeah i think well

2481
01:27:42,790 --> 01:27:40,159
the responsibility in some sense is is

2482
01:27:44,629 --> 01:27:42,800
to lift that load up the hill

2483
01:27:46,390 --> 01:27:44,639
you know i that doesn't mean that it's

2484
01:27:47,590 --> 01:27:46,400
responsibility that's at the top of the

2485
01:27:49,110 --> 01:27:47,600
hill

2486
01:27:52,310 --> 01:27:49,120
ah okay

2487
01:27:55,350 --> 01:27:52,320
in the in the west i mean in some ways

2488
01:27:57,830 --> 01:27:55,360
christ is represented as taking the

2489
01:27:59,510 --> 01:27:57,840
responsibility for all the sins of

2490
01:28:01,669 --> 01:27:59,520
mankind

2491
01:28:04,070 --> 01:28:01,679
unto himself right well that's

2492
01:28:06,470 --> 01:28:04,080
responsibility and look to the degree

2493
01:28:08,310 --> 01:28:06,480
that each of us are trying to sort out

2494
01:28:10,870 --> 01:28:08,320
in our own souls

2495
01:28:12,790 --> 01:28:10,880
complex problems that bedevil other

2496
01:28:15,590 --> 01:28:12,800
people we're doing that in a low

2497
01:28:17,990 --> 01:28:15,600
resolution form right we're taking the

2498
01:28:20,870 --> 01:28:18,000
fragility and errors and malevolence of

2499
01:28:22,470 --> 01:28:20,880
mankind onto ourselves and trying to

2500
01:28:24,310 --> 01:28:22,480
sort that out and that's meaningful

2501
01:28:26,149 --> 01:28:24,320
although it's also extremely burdensome

2502
01:28:28,870 --> 01:28:26,159
and you know it can kill you it can

2503
01:28:30,870 --> 01:28:28,880
crush you and so the responsibility has

2504
01:28:33,590 --> 01:28:30,880
to be tempered in a variety of ways to

2505
01:28:34,709 --> 01:28:33,600
make it even bearable

2506
01:28:36,390 --> 01:28:34,719
you know one of the things that's so

2507
01:28:37,750 --> 01:28:36,400
interesting about the christian story in

2508
01:28:40,149 --> 01:28:37,760
my estimation is that that

2509
01:28:41,750 --> 01:28:40,159
responsibility is so

2510
01:28:43,750 --> 01:28:41,760
overwhelming that

2511
01:28:47,350 --> 01:28:43,760
you know it it was even

2512
01:28:50,229 --> 01:28:47,360
daunting for god himself

2513
01:28:52,390 --> 01:28:50,239
so that's built into the story and

2514
01:28:54,709 --> 01:28:52,400
that's certainly worth thinking about

2515
01:28:56,550 --> 01:28:54,719
you know what's at the top well you

2516
01:28:59,270 --> 01:28:56,560
did we we can

2517
01:29:01,990 --> 01:28:59,280
we can we can sort of we can hit at it

2518
01:29:03,350 --> 01:29:02,000
jung talked about that process that you

2519
01:29:05,189 --> 01:29:03,360
described of viewing something from

2520
01:29:08,470 --> 01:29:05,199
multiple different perspectives he he

2521
01:29:10,790 --> 01:29:08,480
technically called that circumambulation

2522
01:29:13,110 --> 01:29:10,800
and it was the attempt to yeah exactly

2523
01:29:14,870 --> 01:29:13,120
to view something very complicated like

2524
01:29:16,550 --> 01:29:14,880
take snapshots of it from a whole bunch

2525
01:29:19,669 --> 01:29:16,560
of different perspectives and this is

2526
01:29:21,270 --> 01:29:19,679
partly why very rationally minded people

2527
01:29:23,270 --> 01:29:21,280
who like to walk through something

2528
01:29:24,470 --> 01:29:23,280
logically find jung

2529
01:29:26,550 --> 01:29:24,480
hard to

2530
01:29:28,510 --> 01:29:26,560
well tolerate even because that isn't

2531
01:29:30,629 --> 01:29:28,520
how he thinks he thinks in this

2532
01:29:32,070 --> 01:29:30,639
circumambulatory manner well think of it

2533
01:29:34,229 --> 01:29:32,080
this way and think of it this way and

2534
01:29:36,390 --> 01:29:34,239
here's another viewpoint and this and

2535
01:29:38,629 --> 01:29:36,400
and so forth and then you read that it's

2536
01:29:41,189 --> 01:29:38,639
like having an impressionist painting

2537
01:29:43,030 --> 01:29:41,199
cohere in your mind into a hole it's

2538
01:29:45,030 --> 01:29:43,040
like all of a sudden you go whap oh i

2539
01:29:47,669 --> 01:29:45,040
see what he's talking about and that's

2540
01:29:49,430 --> 01:29:47,679
an overwhelming experience i mean i

2541
01:29:51,990 --> 01:29:49,440
really experienced that reading ion

2542
01:29:54,229 --> 01:29:52,000
which is an unbelievably terrifying book

2543
01:29:55,990 --> 01:29:54,239
and it's so brilliant it's it's just it

2544
01:29:57,270 --> 01:29:56,000
hasn't been unpacked at all into our

2545
01:30:00,470 --> 01:29:57,280
culture

2546
01:30:02,310 --> 01:30:00,480
it's terrifying because

2547
01:30:04,550 --> 01:30:02,320
well young is the only

2548
01:30:07,350 --> 01:30:04,560
thinker i've ever seen who you know we

2549
01:30:09,590 --> 01:30:07,360
hypothesized earlier in some sense that

2550
01:30:11,990 --> 01:30:09,600
that artistic intuition

2551
01:30:13,430 --> 01:30:12,000
lays out the map for

2552
01:30:16,149 --> 01:30:13,440
the development of propositional

2553
01:30:18,870 --> 01:30:16,159
thinking well you'll trace the

2554
01:30:22,149 --> 01:30:18,880
development of that intuitive pattern

2555
01:30:24,229 --> 01:30:22,159
seeking imagination back like 3000 years

2556
01:30:26,310 --> 01:30:24,239
that's partly why he talks about

2557
01:30:28,790 --> 01:30:26,320
astrology so

2558
01:30:30,390 --> 01:30:28,800
if if he when we looked up in the night

2559
01:30:33,669 --> 01:30:30,400
sky let's see

2560
01:30:35,430 --> 01:30:33,679
prior to the development of of astronomy

2561
01:30:37,430 --> 01:30:35,440
what we saw we didn't know what we were

2562
01:30:38,629 --> 01:30:37,440
looking at right it filled us with awe

2563
01:30:41,590 --> 01:30:38,639
but we didn't know what we were looking

2564
01:30:43,270 --> 01:30:41,600
at so we populated the sky with figures

2565
01:30:45,189 --> 01:30:43,280
of our imagination

2566
01:30:47,350 --> 01:30:45,199
the better that's the constellations and

2567
01:30:49,669 --> 01:30:47,360
it was a way of orienting ourselves so

2568
01:30:51,030 --> 01:30:49,679
if you look at astrology

2569
01:30:53,110 --> 01:30:51,040
um

2570
01:30:55,110 --> 01:30:53,120
psychologically what you have is a vast

2571
01:30:56,870 --> 01:30:55,120
storehouse of the contents of the human

2572
01:30:59,270 --> 01:30:56,880
imagination

2573
01:31:01,030 --> 01:30:59,280
now in astrology there was the idea of a

2574
01:31:04,310 --> 01:31:01,040
certain kind of progression through the

2575
01:31:06,310 --> 01:31:04,320
eons well jung believed that the fantasy

2576
01:31:09,669 --> 01:31:06,320
that underlined astrology was so deep

2577
01:31:11,270 --> 01:31:09,679
that it had sketched out the map for the

2578
01:31:13,510 --> 01:31:11,280
for the trail that we're actually

2579
01:31:15,590 --> 01:31:13,520
walking down

2580
01:31:16,709 --> 01:31:15,600
i don't know so reading it

2581
01:31:19,990 --> 01:31:16,719
well

2582
01:31:21,510 --> 01:31:20,000
artists have intuitions about what's

2583
01:31:23,910 --> 01:31:21,520
coming

2584
01:31:25,830 --> 01:31:23,920
so they're the first the first people in

2585
01:31:26,790 --> 01:31:25,840
the unexplored territory and then the

2586
01:31:29,270 --> 01:31:26,800
more

2587
01:31:31,669 --> 01:31:29,280
propositional philosophers and such and

2588
01:31:33,910 --> 01:31:31,679
the scientists they fill in the details

2589
01:31:35,910 --> 01:31:33,920
but the the trailblazing has already

2590
01:31:37,590 --> 01:31:35,920
been done by the imaginative and the

2591
01:31:38,629 --> 01:31:37,600
intuitive right

2592
01:31:40,310 --> 01:31:38,639
right right

2593
01:31:41,830 --> 01:31:40,320
an eye on you

2594
01:31:44,470 --> 01:31:41,840
it was sorry

2595
01:31:47,350 --> 01:31:44,480
on young tracks well that's okay and and

2596
01:31:49,830 --> 01:31:47,360
ion young tracks the contents of that

2597
01:31:52,629 --> 01:31:49,840
imagination back

2598
01:31:54,149 --> 01:31:52,639
several thousand years and also lays out

2599
01:31:56,709 --> 01:31:54,159
something like a scheme for the future

2600
01:32:00,470 --> 01:31:56,719
so for example he believed that this is

2601
01:32:02,950 --> 01:32:00,480
so strange man he believed that the idea

2602
01:32:04,950 --> 01:32:02,960
that there were wise men who saw a star

2603
01:32:07,910 --> 01:32:04,960
that signified christ's birth was

2604
01:32:10,470 --> 01:32:07,920
actually a reference to the astrological

2605
01:32:14,229 --> 01:32:10,480
idea that something new would be born at

2606
01:32:18,149 --> 01:32:14,239
the dawn of the ancient age of pisces

2607
01:32:21,910 --> 01:32:19,669
well because they were interpreters of

2608
01:32:23,750 --> 01:32:21,920
the stars

2609
01:32:25,590 --> 01:32:23,760
so pisces

2610
01:32:27,270 --> 01:32:25,600
pisces is a constellation that's

2611
01:32:28,950 --> 01:32:27,280
characterized by a fish going in one

2612
01:32:30,550 --> 01:32:28,960
direction and a fish going in the other

2613
01:32:32,629 --> 01:32:30,560
jung was very interested in the use of

2614
01:32:34,390 --> 01:32:32,639
fish symbolism in christianity he

2615
01:32:37,110 --> 01:32:34,400
associated that with the astrological

2616
01:32:39,590 --> 01:32:37,120
imagination he also believed that the

2617
01:32:41,669 --> 01:32:39,600
2000 year period from christ's birth

2618
01:32:43,830 --> 01:32:41,679
roughly to now was characterized by two

2619
01:32:45,830 --> 01:32:43,840
ions one which was explicitly christian

2620
01:32:47,430 --> 01:32:45,840
that's the fish moving in one direction

2621
01:32:49,270 --> 01:32:47,440
and the other which led to the

2622
01:32:51,750 --> 01:32:49,280
development of empirical science was an

2623
01:32:53,750 --> 01:32:51,760
antithesis

2624
01:32:56,629 --> 01:32:53,760
and that that had been foreshadowed by

2625
01:32:59,270 --> 01:32:56,639
the by this by this symbolism which was

2626
01:33:01,669 --> 01:32:59,280
part of the intuitive discovery of the

2627
01:33:03,910 --> 01:33:01,679
of that which was yet to come

2628
01:33:06,149 --> 01:33:03,920
that's only part of the argument and

2629
01:33:07,750 --> 01:33:06,159
it's an unbelievably profound book and

2630
01:33:10,470 --> 01:33:07,760
it's terrifying once you understand what

2631
01:33:12,070 --> 01:33:10,480
he's talking about and i've never seen

2632
01:33:13,350 --> 01:33:12,080
anyone criticize it who actually

2633
01:33:15,110 --> 01:33:13,360
understood it

2634
01:33:17,030 --> 01:33:15,120
you know almost all the criticisms i've

2635
01:33:18,950 --> 01:33:17,040
seen of jung and his thinking it's like

2636
01:33:21,350 --> 01:33:18,960
no you don't you're not hitting the

2637
01:33:23,110 --> 01:33:21,360
target there buddy he's asking questions

2638
01:33:24,149 --> 01:33:23,120
that you don't even know need to be

2639
01:33:26,229 --> 01:33:24,159
asked

2640
01:33:28,149 --> 01:33:26,239
so you know where you're not

2641
01:33:31,990 --> 01:33:28,159
you're not in the ball game

2642
01:33:35,270 --> 01:33:32,000
so yeah in any case um

2643
01:33:36,870 --> 01:33:35,280
the more scientific minded people

2644
01:33:39,189 --> 01:33:36,880
yeah well the more propositionally

2645
01:33:40,870 --> 01:33:39,199
minded people see jung had a problem

2646
01:33:42,790 --> 01:33:40,880
with the propositional universe he said

2647
01:33:46,070 --> 01:33:42,800
yeah well there's a gap between what we

2648
01:33:49,510 --> 01:33:46,080
know and the unknown per se

2649
01:33:51,910 --> 01:33:49,520
well what fills that gap well dreams

2650
01:33:55,110 --> 01:33:51,920
dreams the imagination

2651
01:33:56,950 --> 01:33:55,120
imagery it's the it's at the boundary of

2652
01:33:59,030 --> 01:33:56,960
propositional thought and it it's

2653
01:34:01,270 --> 01:33:59,040
between us and what we absolutely don't

2654
01:34:03,669 --> 01:34:01,280
know and the visionary artists operate

2655
01:34:06,470 --> 01:34:03,679
in the domain of imagination and pave

2656
01:34:08,070 --> 01:34:06,480
the path for the propositional types and

2657
01:34:10,470 --> 01:34:08,080
think about the relationship say between

2658
01:34:13,510 --> 01:34:10,480
dostoevsky and nietzsche nietzsche was

2659
01:34:16,790 --> 01:34:13,520
much more propositional than dostoevsky

2660
01:34:18,709 --> 01:34:16,800
but dostoevsky fundamentally is deeper

2661
01:34:22,070 --> 01:34:18,719
now he's not as clear

2662
01:34:23,110 --> 01:34:22,080
right that's the trade-off

2663
01:34:25,910 --> 01:34:23,120
everything in nietzsche is in

2664
01:34:28,550 --> 01:34:25,920
dostoyevsky and moore is in dostoyevsky

2665
01:34:30,870 --> 01:34:28,560
and nietzsche himself knew that i mean

2666
01:34:32,629 --> 01:34:30,880
he he was no when it came to

2667
01:34:34,629 --> 01:34:32,639
appreciation let's say of works of the

2668
01:34:37,430 --> 01:34:34,639
imagination but that's a good way of

2669
01:34:39,270 --> 01:34:37,440
thinking and then

2670
01:34:41,350 --> 01:34:39,280
you see this too i saw this great

2671
01:34:42,709 --> 01:34:41,360
lecture by jonathan pajot which i'm

2672
01:34:44,790 --> 01:34:42,719
going to put up on my youtube channel

2673
01:34:47,189 --> 01:34:44,800
where he spent about 20 minutes

2674
01:34:48,950 --> 01:34:47,199
explaining the meaning of an orthodox

2675
01:34:51,590 --> 01:34:48,960
icon that showed

2676
01:34:53,590 --> 01:34:51,600
a serpent uh it i don't want to get into

2677
01:34:55,189 --> 01:34:53,600
it's too complicated but

2678
01:34:57,350 --> 01:34:55,199
there's so much in that image you just

2679
01:34:59,430 --> 01:34:57,360
can't believe it and you think well how

2680
01:35:01,350 --> 01:34:59,440
did it all get there and it's it's akin

2681
01:35:03,270 --> 01:35:01,360
to the question you asked about the

2682
01:35:05,510 --> 01:35:03,280
mathematician

2683
01:35:07,669 --> 01:35:05,520
it's like who who has plumbed the depths

2684
01:35:09,270 --> 01:35:07,679
of the human souls no one

2685
01:35:11,109 --> 01:35:09,280
where do these ideas come from well they

2686
01:35:12,709 --> 01:35:11,119
appear in my head you think that's an

2687
01:35:15,109 --> 01:35:12,719
explanation

2688
01:35:16,950 --> 01:35:15,119
the ideas appear in your where in your

2689
01:35:19,189 --> 01:35:16,960
head exactly

2690
01:35:21,030 --> 01:35:19,199
what do you mean by your head

2691
01:35:22,790 --> 01:35:21,040
do you mean physically like what do you

2692
01:35:26,550 --> 01:35:22,800
mean

2693
01:35:28,390 --> 01:35:26,560
and god only knows where ideas come from

2694
01:35:30,149 --> 01:35:28,400
and to think that they just spring fully

2695
01:35:31,990 --> 01:35:30,159
formed out of the void without a huge

2696
01:35:33,910 --> 01:35:32,000
developmental history is naive in the

2697
01:35:35,990 --> 01:35:33,920
extreme

2698
01:35:37,750 --> 01:35:36,000
yeah it's like who built

2699
01:35:40,070 --> 01:35:37,760
who built the sistine chapel was it

2700
01:35:42,870 --> 01:35:40,080
michelangelo not who built who painted

2701
01:35:44,950 --> 01:35:42,880
and well in some sense yes but also his

2702
01:35:47,109 --> 01:35:44,960
he came from a myriad of people before

2703
01:35:48,709 --> 01:35:47,119
him and not only that but the bible and

2704
01:35:50,550 --> 01:35:48,719
also thousands and thousands of years

2705
01:35:51,430 --> 01:35:50,560
before to meet these scientists who like

2706
01:35:54,149 --> 01:35:51,440
to

2707
01:35:55,669 --> 01:35:54,159
in any way i mean the rationally

2708
01:35:57,189 --> 01:35:55,679
atheistic minded scientists and i'm

2709
01:35:59,189 --> 01:35:57,199
strong manning them when i'm saying that

2710
01:36:01,270 --> 01:35:59,199
so let me just pick someone kraus so

2711
01:36:02,790 --> 01:36:01,280
kraus to

2712
01:36:04,070 --> 01:36:02,800
to pick on krauss

2713
01:36:05,910 --> 01:36:04,080
krauss would

2714
01:36:07,590 --> 01:36:05,920
he looks a phenomenon an extremely

2715
01:36:09,270 --> 01:36:07,600
deathless manner now obviously he

2716
01:36:10,550 --> 01:36:09,280
doesn't but what i mean is it's almost

2717
01:36:13,350 --> 01:36:10,560
like someone who's at the top of the

2718
01:36:14,950 --> 01:36:13,360
trees and they're so far up that they

2719
01:36:16,470 --> 01:36:14,960
don't realize that there's roots beneath

2720
01:36:17,669 --> 01:36:16,480
them that they've forgotten that there's

2721
01:36:20,070 --> 01:36:17,679
roots and they think that that they

2722
01:36:21,430 --> 01:36:20,080
don't need it they dislike what

2723
01:36:24,709 --> 01:36:21,440
well that's part of this that's right

2724
01:36:27,750 --> 01:36:24,719
that's exactly that's part of the see

2725
01:36:29,350 --> 01:36:27,760
kraus is a great physicist and and

2726
01:36:31,590 --> 01:36:29,360
um

2727
01:36:34,390 --> 01:36:31,600
but there's a lot of what he does that

2728
01:36:35,750 --> 01:36:34,400
he regards as self-evident and

2729
01:36:39,669 --> 01:36:35,760
and

2730
01:36:41,109 --> 01:36:39,679
a precondition for what he does as a

2731
01:36:42,550 --> 01:36:41,119
physicist because you know if you're a

2732
01:36:45,189 --> 01:36:42,560
physicist you're off doing physics

2733
01:36:47,350 --> 01:36:45,199
you're not questioning your presumptions

2734
01:36:48,709 --> 01:36:47,360
except maybe in the domain of physics

2735
01:36:50,629 --> 01:36:48,719
but a lot of what he regards as

2736
01:36:52,149 --> 01:36:50,639
self-evident just simply isn't

2737
01:36:54,790 --> 01:36:52,159
self-evident

2738
01:36:56,310 --> 01:36:54,800
it's not and and that's a real problem

2739
01:36:57,750 --> 01:36:56,320
when it comes to discussions about

2740
01:36:59,910 --> 01:36:57,760
what's real and

2741
01:37:01,350 --> 01:36:59,920
the you brought up an issue a couple of

2742
01:37:02,550 --> 01:37:01,360
issues earlier that are really worth

2743
01:37:04,629 --> 01:37:02,560
returning to

2744
01:37:07,270 --> 01:37:04,639
you know one issue is

2745
01:37:09,030 --> 01:37:07,280
what is the one that unites the many

2746
01:37:10,470 --> 01:37:09,040
and you might say well we don't need one

2747
01:37:12,629 --> 01:37:10,480
that unites the many we can have a

2748
01:37:13,750 --> 01:37:12,639
diverse range of values let's say it's

2749
01:37:16,310 --> 01:37:13,760
well then you have the problem of

2750
01:37:17,750 --> 01:37:16,320
conflict confusion and anxiety plus

2751
01:37:19,350 --> 01:37:17,760
hopelessness because you don't really

2752
01:37:21,510 --> 01:37:19,360
have a goal

2753
01:37:22,790 --> 01:37:21,520
it's not it's not like that polytheism

2754
01:37:24,390 --> 01:37:22,800
let's say

2755
01:37:25,109 --> 01:37:24,400
is without a cost

2756
01:37:29,350 --> 01:37:25,119
it's

2757
01:37:32,070 --> 01:37:29,360
and it causes social havoc because

2758
01:37:34,310 --> 01:37:32,080
person a will pursue value a and person

2759
01:37:35,830 --> 01:37:34,320
b will pursue value b and that's okay if

2760
01:37:37,590 --> 01:37:35,840
they're united under a higher order

2761
01:37:40,149 --> 01:37:37,600
structure that unites them in some sense

2762
01:37:42,149 --> 01:37:40,159
but it's not okay at all it's it's the

2763
01:37:44,629 --> 01:37:42,159
situation in the desert when moses is

2764
01:37:45,510 --> 01:37:44,639
leading his people away from from egypt

2765
01:37:47,350 --> 01:37:45,520
right

2766
01:37:49,669 --> 01:37:47,360
it's the central organizing principle

2767
01:37:51,350 --> 01:37:49,679
was the egyptian totalitarian state had

2768
01:37:54,310 --> 01:37:51,360
dissolved and what happens is this

2769
01:37:56,709 --> 01:37:54,320
descent into a fragmentation

2770
01:37:59,030 --> 01:37:56,719
and that's extremely dangerous it's not

2771
01:38:00,790 --> 01:37:59,040
the promised land that's for sure so the

2772
01:38:02,870 --> 01:38:00,800
question is well what's the one that

2773
01:38:04,950 --> 01:38:02,880
unites the many that's the central

2774
01:38:06,310 --> 01:38:04,960
religious question

2775
01:38:08,550 --> 01:38:06,320
now

2776
01:38:11,109 --> 01:38:08,560
so then and but and can't you say that

2777
01:38:12,149 --> 01:38:11,119
the one that unites the many is the most

2778
01:38:13,350 --> 01:38:12,159
real

2779
01:38:15,270 --> 01:38:13,360
well then you're in the domain of

2780
01:38:17,270 --> 01:38:15,280
definition right at that point it starts

2781
01:38:18,070 --> 01:38:17,280
to become like a definition rather than

2782
01:38:19,910 --> 01:38:18,080
yeah

2783
01:38:21,830 --> 01:38:19,920
that's why when you

2784
01:38:24,950 --> 01:38:21,840
when you ask people to define well what

2785
01:38:26,709 --> 01:38:24,960
is real it just becomes tautological

2786
01:38:28,790 --> 01:38:26,719
not that by the way not the tautologies

2787
01:38:31,350 --> 01:38:28,800
are trivial so for example there's chris

2788
01:38:34,149 --> 01:38:31,360
langan he has one of the highest iqs

2789
01:38:34,950 --> 01:38:34,159
recorded along with savant i believe

2790
01:38:39,430 --> 01:38:34,960
he

2791
01:38:40,629 --> 01:38:39,440
of everything in some sense from a super

2792
01:38:42,070 --> 01:38:40,639
tautology

2793
01:38:44,950 --> 01:38:42,080
that is

2794
01:38:47,109 --> 01:38:44,960
it's it's a

2795
01:38:48,870 --> 01:38:47,119
it's an appetite that's god's definition

2796
01:38:51,990 --> 01:38:48,880
of himself right

2797
01:38:53,830 --> 01:38:52,000
i am that i am

2798
01:38:55,590 --> 01:38:53,840
that's god's definition of himself in

2799
01:38:57,430 --> 01:38:55,600
the bible yeah okay man i think we

2800
01:38:59,189 --> 01:38:57,440
should talk about the definitions of god

2801
01:39:01,270 --> 01:38:59,199
this is extremely interesting so you

2802
01:39:03,510 --> 01:39:01,280
mentioned what's what we tried it one to

2803
01:39:05,430 --> 01:39:03,520
one part right well it's well that's a

2804
01:39:07,189 --> 01:39:05,440
good question you know i think it's the

2805
01:39:10,070 --> 01:39:07,199
spirit that guides our sequential

2806
01:39:12,229 --> 01:39:10,080
transformations upward to a higher and

2807
01:39:14,470 --> 01:39:12,239
higher form of unity and maybe a higher

2808
01:39:17,270 --> 01:39:14,480
and higher form of delight and love do

2809
01:39:18,870 --> 01:39:17,280
you think that we're all god i'm sure

2810
01:39:23,910 --> 01:39:18,880
you've heard some people say that we're

2811
01:39:27,350 --> 01:39:25,990
i i can't answer a question like that

2812
01:39:30,070 --> 01:39:27,360
exactly

2813
01:39:32,229 --> 01:39:30,080
i mean i believe that the idea that we

2814
01:39:34,070 --> 01:39:32,239
have a divine spark within is an

2815
01:39:37,430 --> 01:39:34,080
extraordinarily

2816
01:39:40,870 --> 01:39:37,440
beautiful poetic and necessary idea and

2817
01:39:43,510 --> 01:39:40,880
i think that if you act like that

2818
01:39:46,629 --> 01:39:43,520
to yourself and other people that

2819
01:39:48,550 --> 01:39:46,639
things get radically

2820
01:39:54,149 --> 01:39:48,560
interesting

2821
01:39:55,910 --> 01:39:54,159
you and it seems to be a very good a

2822
01:39:58,390 --> 01:39:55,920
good proposition

2823
01:40:00,550 --> 01:39:58,400
to guide your actions you know because

2824
01:40:03,350 --> 01:40:00,560
what we're hoping you and me may be to

2825
01:40:04,310 --> 01:40:03,360
the degree that we're being good

2826
01:40:06,550 --> 01:40:04,320
is that

2827
01:40:10,149 --> 01:40:06,560
the spirit of truth in you is speaking

2828
01:40:13,030 --> 01:40:10,159
to the spirit of truth in me

2829
01:40:15,830 --> 01:40:13,040
and so and that is

2830
01:40:18,390 --> 01:40:15,840
a reflection of the presumption

2831
01:40:20,550 --> 01:40:18,400
upon which western civilization is based

2832
01:40:22,470 --> 01:40:20,560
explicitly let's say

2833
01:40:24,390 --> 01:40:22,480
not to say that it doesn't

2834
01:40:26,310 --> 01:40:24,400
permeate other cultures

2835
01:40:28,390 --> 01:40:26,320
but it's that spirit of truth that

2836
01:40:30,470 --> 01:40:28,400
animates us and that redeems us and our

2837
01:40:32,229 --> 01:40:30,480
societies as well and hopefully that's

2838
01:40:34,870 --> 01:40:32,239
expressed in

2839
01:40:36,870 --> 01:40:34,880
the quality of our speech when we're

2840
01:40:40,470 --> 01:40:36,880
free to speak

2841
01:40:41,990 --> 01:40:40,480
and so is that divine well

2842
01:40:44,310 --> 01:40:42,000
is that divine well i don't think it's

2843
01:40:45,830 --> 01:40:44,320
separable from thought itself in some

2844
01:40:47,510 --> 01:40:45,840
sense it might not be separable from

2845
01:40:50,870 --> 01:40:47,520
consciousness itself

2846
01:40:53,189 --> 01:40:50,880
is that divine well you know whenever

2847
01:40:55,189 --> 01:40:53,199
you have that is that this it's an

2848
01:40:59,109 --> 01:40:55,199
equation right

2849
01:41:01,109 --> 01:40:59,119
is one plus one equal to two well

2850
01:41:02,470 --> 01:41:01,119
one of the answers the radical

2851
01:41:06,390 --> 01:41:02,480
each of

2852
01:41:07,830 --> 01:41:06,400
claims on both

2853
01:41:09,910 --> 01:41:07,840
on both sides of the equation are

2854
01:41:10,870 --> 01:41:09,920
equally dubious in relationship to one

2855
01:41:12,070 --> 01:41:10,880
another

2856
01:41:14,310 --> 01:41:12,080
because what you're trying to do is to

2857
01:41:16,229 --> 01:41:14,320
say is god real

2858
01:41:20,629 --> 01:41:16,239
well what you say what you're not saying

2859
01:41:22,870 --> 01:41:20,639
is we know what real is and it's this

2860
01:41:24,790 --> 01:41:22,880
and god does god fit into that category

2861
01:41:26,790 --> 01:41:24,800
it's also we know what god is in order

2862
01:41:30,790 --> 01:41:26,800
to assess it well because you could

2863
01:41:32,709 --> 01:41:30,800
reverse it and say is real god

2864
01:41:34,870 --> 01:41:32,719
it's the same question right it's the

2865
01:41:35,910 --> 01:41:34,880
same question

2866
01:41:37,590 --> 01:41:35,920
so here's

2867
01:41:38,950 --> 01:41:37,600
one of this this is something i heard

2868
01:41:41,109 --> 01:41:38,960
from tyler goldstein who has his own

2869
01:41:42,550 --> 01:41:41,119
theory of everything he said

2870
01:41:44,629 --> 01:41:42,560
the ordinary ordinarily here's how it

2871
01:41:45,990 --> 01:41:44,639
works we look for we have a definition

2872
01:41:47,590 --> 01:41:46,000
and then we look for evidence and then

2873
01:41:49,430 --> 01:41:47,600
dismiss what we've just defined if we

2874
01:41:51,910 --> 01:41:49,440
don't find the evidence he said perhaps

2875
01:41:52,790 --> 01:41:51,920
what we should do when it comes to god

2876
01:41:55,510 --> 01:41:52,800
is

2877
01:41:58,950 --> 01:41:57,590
instead of looking for god and then not

2878
01:42:00,790 --> 01:41:58,960
finding it and then saying god doesn't

2879
01:42:02,790 --> 01:42:00,800
exist you use the fact that you didn't

2880
01:42:04,390 --> 01:42:02,800
find evidence of god as an indication

2881
01:42:05,350 --> 01:42:04,400
that you should alter your definition of

2882
01:42:07,109 --> 01:42:05,360
god

2883
01:42:08,870 --> 01:42:07,119
yeah well that's that's sure

2884
01:42:11,350 --> 01:42:08,880
that's a perfectly real

2885
01:42:12,870 --> 01:42:11,360
approach to that problem right obviously

2886
01:42:13,669 --> 01:42:12,880
there's some this

2887
01:42:16,229 --> 01:42:13,679
yeah

2888
01:42:19,030 --> 01:42:17,669
now that's a good that's a really good

2889
01:42:21,510 --> 01:42:19,040
observation

2890
01:42:23,510 --> 01:42:21,520
right it shows you how tricky questions

2891
01:42:25,750 --> 01:42:23,520
like that are right it's like well maybe

2892
01:42:27,990 --> 01:42:25,760
you're looking in the wrong place

2893
01:42:29,590 --> 01:42:28,000
maybe you formulated your search

2894
01:42:31,510 --> 01:42:29,600
incorrectly

2895
01:42:33,350 --> 01:42:31,520
like you don't know because let's say

2896
01:42:35,030 --> 01:42:33,360
you're aiming at the highest reality

2897
01:42:36,310 --> 01:42:35,040
right it's like you're aiming at the

2898
01:42:38,390 --> 01:42:36,320
highest reality well how do you know you

2899
01:42:39,910 --> 01:42:38,400
have the question formulated properly

2900
01:42:43,030 --> 01:42:39,920
because if you if you did well you'd

2901
01:42:44,550 --> 01:42:43,040
have already found it

2902
01:42:52,550 --> 01:42:44,560
and so you might say well does the

2903
01:42:57,189 --> 01:42:54,149
we we're back to the problem of the one

2904
01:42:59,030 --> 01:42:57,199
that unites the many yeah yeah i see i

2905
01:43:00,790 --> 01:42:59,040
was downtown in toronto and i i just

2906
01:43:02,550 --> 01:43:00,800
talked to someone and he's he's his

2907
01:43:03,830 --> 01:43:02,560
jamaican guy so if you've well probably

2908
01:43:05,669 --> 01:43:03,840
won't happen now it's too cold he was

2909
01:43:07,270 --> 01:43:05,679
cutting

2910
01:43:08,950 --> 01:43:07,280
coconuts and selling it and i said hey

2911
01:43:11,350 --> 01:43:08,960
by the way what's your name he said kurt

2912
01:43:13,430 --> 01:43:11,360
i'm like oh my god i rarely meet people

2913
01:43:15,030 --> 01:43:13,440
whose name's name is kurt and he's from

2914
01:43:16,870 --> 01:43:15,040
the caribbean and i walked away and i

2915
01:43:18,149 --> 01:43:16,880
remember thinking uh he has my name and

2916
01:43:20,229 --> 01:43:18,159
then i remember stopping thinking no no

2917
01:43:21,189 --> 01:43:20,239
he's much older i have his name then i

2918
01:43:23,189 --> 01:43:21,199
thought

2919
01:43:25,189 --> 01:43:23,199
probably what's better to say is we

2920
01:43:27,990 --> 01:43:25,199
share the same name and then i thought

2921
01:43:29,590 --> 01:43:28,000
ah okay what is it that we all share and

2922
01:43:31,350 --> 01:43:29,600
is that somehow related is that not

2923
01:43:33,510 --> 01:43:31,360
synonymous with god

2924
01:43:35,510 --> 01:43:33,520
what is it that we all share now here's

2925
01:43:36,470 --> 01:43:35,520
something else that i was thinking about

2926
01:43:37,750 --> 01:43:36,480
when we

2927
01:43:40,229 --> 01:43:37,760
right now we're speaking to one another

2928
01:43:41,590 --> 01:43:40,239
in podcast form so in some sense we're

2929
01:43:42,709 --> 01:43:41,600
copying this you can think of this

2930
01:43:45,189 --> 01:43:42,719
archetypically in some sense we're

2931
01:43:47,350 --> 01:43:45,199
copying podcasts by doing so when one is

2932
01:43:49,669 --> 01:43:47,360
playing rock music

2933
01:43:50,950 --> 01:43:49,679
one is copying rock in some because no

2934
01:43:52,870 --> 01:43:50,960
one speaks with a twang where do you

2935
01:43:54,149 --> 01:43:52,880
develop that you're copying something

2936
01:43:55,669 --> 01:43:54,159
then i thought well how far can you take

2937
01:43:57,990 --> 01:43:55,679
that when you're doing art in general

2938
01:44:00,070 --> 01:43:58,000
what are you copying okay how far can

2939
01:44:02,310 --> 01:44:00,080
that be taken how about right man now

2940
01:44:04,870 --> 01:44:02,320
you've got exactly it right how about if

2941
01:44:06,709 --> 01:44:04,880
you're simply living laying there

2942
01:44:09,750 --> 01:44:06,719
what are you copying

2943
01:44:11,830 --> 01:44:09,760
is by simply existing and living is that

2944
01:44:17,270 --> 01:44:11,840
a reflection of that what you're copying

2945
01:44:20,629 --> 01:44:19,030
that is abstracted completely i don't

2946
01:44:22,229 --> 01:44:20,639
think there's any difference i don't

2947
01:44:26,229 --> 01:44:22,239
think there's any difference between

2948
01:44:30,229 --> 01:44:28,149
they're the same thing

2949
01:44:32,070 --> 01:44:30,239
that's why the eastern orthodox types

2950
01:44:33,350 --> 01:44:32,080
lay such emphasis on the imitation of

2951
01:44:35,669 --> 01:44:33,360
christ

2952
01:44:37,669 --> 01:44:35,679
well you should worship well pashjo he

2953
01:44:39,109 --> 01:44:37,679
says well that means enthusiastically

2954
01:44:40,870 --> 01:44:39,119
celebrate

2955
01:44:42,709 --> 01:44:40,880
right raised to the highest position

2956
01:44:45,750 --> 01:44:42,719
well then you imitate that you imitate

2957
01:44:47,669 --> 01:44:45,760
that which is of most value

2958
01:44:50,870 --> 01:44:47,679
you imitate hopefully right what else

2959
01:44:56,149 --> 01:44:51,830
have you thought much about

2960
01:45:00,229 --> 01:44:57,590
you'd have to be worse okay here's the

2961
01:45:02,629 --> 01:45:00,239
reason why i say that imagine now

2962
01:45:04,550 --> 01:45:02,639
i i believe you outlined this too we've

2963
01:45:06,070 --> 01:45:04,560
talked plenty about maps so let's

2964
01:45:08,070 --> 01:45:06,080
imagine it's literally like a map just

2965
01:45:09,350 --> 01:45:08,080
for simplicity you you construct the

2966
01:45:11,830 --> 01:45:09,360
world so you have a world view and it

2967
01:45:13,350 --> 01:45:11,840
looks like a top-down view of a

2968
01:45:15,270 --> 01:45:13,360
of when you're buying an apartment and

2969
01:45:20,070 --> 01:45:15,280
you see the ground layout so imagine

2970
01:45:24,470 --> 01:45:23,030
when it comes to self-fulfilling beliefs

2971
01:45:26,229 --> 01:45:24,480
that's extremely interesting to me

2972
01:45:27,990 --> 01:45:26,239
because it means there are parts of

2973
01:45:30,470 --> 01:45:28,000
reality on that map

2974
01:45:31,910 --> 01:45:30,480
that whatever you project to be there

2975
01:45:33,430 --> 01:45:31,920
will be there

2976
01:45:34,950 --> 01:45:33,440
so let's say i think there's a toilet in

2977
01:45:36,550 --> 01:45:34,960
there you're right if you don't think

2978
01:45:38,390 --> 01:45:36,560
there's a toilet in there there's

2979
01:45:40,470 --> 01:45:38,400
there's not so there are parts of your

2980
01:45:42,870 --> 01:45:40,480
map that are always correct no matter

2981
01:45:44,870 --> 01:45:42,880
what you think about yeah well okay oh

2982
01:45:47,430 --> 01:45:44,880
well okay i would i would turn that a

2983
01:45:49,109 --> 01:45:47,440
little bit i would say

2984
01:45:51,830 --> 01:45:49,119
this is something kierkegaard talked

2985
01:45:54,149 --> 01:45:51,840
about at least to some degree

2986
01:45:57,830 --> 01:45:54,159
imagine that there are only things that

2987
01:46:00,629 --> 01:45:57,840
you can find out by doing them

2988
01:46:02,550 --> 01:46:00,639
so there are there you can't validate

2989
01:46:05,189 --> 01:46:02,560
the hypothesis you can't test the

2990
01:46:06,790 --> 01:46:05,199
hypothesis without acting it out

2991
01:46:08,470 --> 01:46:06,800
so let's say

2992
01:46:11,510 --> 01:46:08,480
you decide that you're going to tell the

2993
01:46:13,830 --> 01:46:11,520
truth well how what evidence is there

2994
01:46:15,270 --> 01:46:13,840
that you should do that well

2995
01:46:17,109 --> 01:46:15,280
who knows there's evidence that you

2996
01:46:18,550 --> 01:46:17,119
should lie it works in the short term it

2997
01:46:20,470 --> 01:46:18,560
might be to your benefit in the short

2998
01:46:22,550 --> 01:46:20,480
term i mean maybe if you deceive some

2999
01:46:24,310 --> 01:46:22,560
girl she'll sleep with you you know it's

3000
01:46:25,189 --> 01:46:24,320
like why not do that

3001
01:46:27,510 --> 01:46:25,199
well

3002
01:46:29,109 --> 01:46:27,520
you can't collect the facts you know in

3003
01:46:31,189 --> 01:46:29,119
some sense

3004
01:46:32,950 --> 01:46:31,199
no not in this simple manner well let's

3005
01:46:35,750 --> 01:46:32,960
say you decide to

3006
01:46:37,109 --> 01:46:35,760
tell the truth as carefully as you can

3007
01:46:39,189 --> 01:46:37,119
well then you're going to have a certain

3008
01:46:40,470 --> 01:46:39,199
kind of life

3009
01:46:42,470 --> 01:46:40,480
and you're not going to have that life

3010
01:46:45,189 --> 01:46:42,480
unless you do that and so you won't even

3011
01:46:47,270 --> 01:46:45,199
get access to the data unless you

3012
01:46:49,350 --> 01:46:47,280
take the steps and that's partly why

3013
01:46:51,669 --> 01:46:49,360
faith is necessary especially in an

3014
01:46:53,830 --> 01:46:51,679
endeavor like that you have to decide at

3015
01:46:55,270 --> 01:46:53,840
some fundamental

3016
01:46:57,189 --> 01:46:55,280
level right you know maybe you're

3017
01:46:59,109 --> 01:46:57,199
scattered all over the place it's

3018
01:47:01,030 --> 01:46:59,119
interesting when christ comes back in

3019
01:47:03,189 --> 01:47:01,040
the book of revelation

3020
01:47:06,629 --> 01:47:03,199
and he's the judge so he's separating

3021
01:47:08,470 --> 01:47:06,639
the damned from the saved let's say

3022
01:47:10,870 --> 01:47:08,480
he says something very strange he says

3023
01:47:12,390 --> 01:47:10,880
uh if you are neither hot nor cold i

3024
01:47:14,310 --> 01:47:12,400
will spit you out of my mouth he

3025
01:47:15,990 --> 01:47:14,320
actually says vomit it's so it's a

3026
01:47:19,830 --> 01:47:16,000
disgust reaction

3027
01:47:22,390 --> 01:47:19,840
and it's it's it's this idea that

3028
01:47:24,070 --> 01:47:22,400
it's the worst sin is to play both sides

3029
01:47:25,030 --> 01:47:24,080
against the middle

3030
01:47:26,629 --> 01:47:25,040
you know

3031
01:47:28,229 --> 01:47:26,639
that sometimes you'll lie and sometimes

3032
01:47:30,229 --> 01:47:28,239
you'll tell the truth you know you won't

3033
01:47:32,790 --> 01:47:30,239
commit to something because you want it

3034
01:47:34,709 --> 01:47:32,800
both ways and that's the worst possible

3035
01:47:35,910 --> 01:47:34,719
well so let's say you commit to lies

3036
01:47:38,229 --> 01:47:35,920
well maybe you'll find out pretty

3037
01:47:40,229 --> 01:47:38,239
quickly that that's a hell of a thing to

3038
01:47:40,950 --> 01:47:40,239
do and learn what if you don't commit

3039
01:47:43,510 --> 01:47:40,960
not

3040
01:47:44,709 --> 01:47:43,520
sorry sorry yeah yeah go ahead i was

3041
01:47:45,830 --> 01:47:44,719
gonna say what if you don't commit not

3042
01:47:47,510 --> 01:47:45,840
because you

3043
01:47:48,870 --> 01:47:47,520
believe that you know what's

3044
01:47:50,709 --> 01:47:48,880
what's correct and you'd like to lie but

3045
01:47:52,390 --> 01:47:50,719
because you simply don't know yeah well

3046
01:47:54,310 --> 01:47:52,400
that's why

3047
01:47:55,750 --> 01:47:54,320
yeah yeah yeah that's that's a different

3048
01:47:57,430 --> 01:47:55,760
that's psychologically that's a whole

3049
01:48:00,149 --> 01:47:57,440
different thing i would say

3050
01:48:01,990 --> 01:48:00,159
uh well the real damage comes when you

3051
01:48:04,390 --> 01:48:02,000
know what you should do and then you

3052
01:48:06,790 --> 01:48:04,400
decide not to do it anyways yeah you

3053
01:48:08,629 --> 01:48:06,800
know violate your conscience yeah yes it

3054
01:48:10,310 --> 01:48:08,639
is the same thing and if you practice

3055
01:48:10,950 --> 01:48:10,320
that you're you're going to be in hell

3056
01:48:12,310 --> 01:48:10,960
and

3057
01:48:14,310 --> 01:48:12,320
you're probably going to drag a fair

3058
01:48:15,669 --> 01:48:14,320
number of people along with you if you

3059
01:48:17,590 --> 01:48:15,679
have your druthers

3060
01:48:19,990 --> 01:48:17,600
so i feel comfortable speculating

3061
01:48:22,470 --> 01:48:20,000
because i don't mind sorry i'm so sorry

3062
01:48:24,310 --> 01:48:22,480
that i keep interrupting oh man it's my

3063
01:48:25,510 --> 01:48:24,320
you're not don't be sorry about it okay

3064
01:48:27,990 --> 01:48:25,520
let me say that's fine let me say that

3065
01:48:29,669 --> 01:48:28,000
it's fine i i also i don't know if it's

3066
01:48:32,149 --> 01:48:29,679
true that you temporarily get what you

3067
01:48:33,990 --> 01:48:32,159
want per se when you lie and the reason

3068
01:48:35,109 --> 01:48:34,000
is it depends on what you want now

3069
01:48:36,070 --> 01:48:35,119
obviously everything depends on

3070
01:48:38,149 --> 01:48:36,080
everything you can always say that

3071
01:48:39,510 --> 01:48:38,159
depends on so and so but the reason i

3072
01:48:41,510 --> 01:48:39,520
say that is that

3073
01:48:44,149 --> 01:48:41,520
it's maritricious in some sense you

3074
01:48:45,910 --> 01:48:44,159
think you want object x and then it

3075
01:48:47,030 --> 01:48:45,920
turns out that you don't when you get it

3076
01:48:48,550 --> 01:48:47,040
so i remember in pirates of the

3077
01:48:50,070 --> 01:48:48,560
caribbean i could be misremembering this

3078
01:48:51,120 --> 01:48:50,080
but there are some gold i think i'm

3079
01:48:52,390 --> 01:48:51,130
completely

3080
01:48:53,750 --> 01:48:52,400
[Music]

3081
01:48:55,669 --> 01:48:53,760
generalizing this but let's imagine

3082
01:48:57,350 --> 01:48:55,679
there's some gold

3083
01:48:58,950 --> 01:48:57,360
gem that they wanted and it glows and

3084
01:49:00,870 --> 01:48:58,960
this guy's like there's only one in the

3085
01:49:02,390 --> 01:49:00,880
world it's unique i want this he

3086
01:49:04,629 --> 01:49:02,400
eventually goes through this whole

3087
01:49:06,310 --> 01:49:04,639
journey he finds it and then he says oh

3088
01:49:07,830 --> 01:49:06,320
you know what then he's happy until he

3089
01:49:09,189 --> 01:49:07,840
gets to this island where there's

3090
01:49:10,550 --> 01:49:09,199
millions it just

3091
01:49:12,870 --> 01:49:10,560
as far as the eye can see there are

3092
01:49:14,950 --> 01:49:12,880
these gold gems and it just stops he's

3093
01:49:15,910 --> 01:49:14,960
like why did i go through all this for

3094
01:49:18,070 --> 01:49:15,920
that

3095
01:49:19,910 --> 01:49:18,080
and in some sense i'm wondering

3096
01:49:22,229 --> 01:49:19,920
hmm

3097
01:49:24,870 --> 01:49:22,239
this is the majority of religious texts

3098
01:49:27,189 --> 01:49:24,880
telling us you think you want so-and-so

3099
01:49:29,189 --> 01:49:27,199
what you actually want is this and in

3100
01:49:31,030 --> 01:49:29,199
that way we can say that even the

3101
01:49:32,709 --> 01:49:31,040
atheist we can even say that the atheist

3102
01:49:34,629 --> 01:49:32,719
ultimately wants god even the serial

3103
01:49:37,270 --> 01:49:34,639
killer ultimately wants god well that's

3104
01:49:39,109 --> 01:49:37,280
it that's yeah yeah they're distractions

3105
01:49:40,629 --> 01:49:39,119
i can't wander down that road with you

3106
01:49:43,270 --> 01:49:40,639
at the moment because i'm getting tired

3107
01:49:45,270 --> 01:49:43,280
but um i'd like to say one thing about

3108
01:49:46,390 --> 01:49:45,280
that deceit issue again and maybe we

3109
01:49:48,070 --> 01:49:46,400
could close

3110
01:49:51,189 --> 01:49:48,080
if you lie

3111
01:49:53,510 --> 01:49:51,199
to a girl and she sleeps with you sure

3112
01:49:56,950 --> 01:49:53,520
why aren't you a rapist

3113
01:49:58,870 --> 01:49:56,960
and is that actually what you wanted

3114
01:50:00,709 --> 01:49:58,880
right because you're you're it's false

3115
01:50:03,030 --> 01:50:00,719
pretenses like if you could get away

3116
01:50:06,629 --> 01:50:04,470
yeah well so then all of a sudden you

3117
01:50:08,390 --> 01:50:06,639
don't have well maybe what you want in

3118
01:50:11,430 --> 01:50:08,400
your soul of souls is

3119
01:50:13,669 --> 01:50:11,440
you know

3120
01:50:16,390 --> 01:50:13,679
this the sexual encounter you'd have in

3121
01:50:18,950 --> 01:50:16,400
paradise you know you want love you want

3122
01:50:21,990 --> 01:50:18,960
companionship you want the maternal

3123
01:50:24,070 --> 01:50:22,000
embrace you want eroticism you want deep

3124
01:50:26,070 --> 01:50:24,080
personal contact you want eye to eye

3125
01:50:29,189 --> 01:50:26,080
communication that's all part of this

3126
01:50:31,589 --> 01:50:29,199
fantasy you know then you deceive

3127
01:50:33,830 --> 01:50:31,599
to get it and then you get it well no

3128
01:50:35,350 --> 01:50:33,840
you don't because you're a deceitful

3129
01:50:36,870 --> 01:50:35,360
rapist

3130
01:50:38,870 --> 01:50:36,880
and so what do you get well you get the

3131
01:50:41,109 --> 01:50:38,880
corruption of your soul and

3132
01:50:43,189 --> 01:50:41,119
the the contamination of the thing that

3133
01:50:45,430 --> 01:50:43,199
you want and need most desperately and

3134
01:50:49,830 --> 01:50:45,440
that the entire human

3135
01:50:53,430 --> 01:50:51,270
and that's probably a good place to

3136
01:50:54,950 --> 01:50:53,440
close

3137
01:50:57,270 --> 01:50:54,960
it's really good talking to you man yeah

3138
01:51:00,310 --> 01:50:57,280
yeah it's great talking to you now

3139
01:51:01,750 --> 01:51:00,320
man i wanted to talk about your film

3140
01:51:04,070 --> 01:51:01,760
sure sure

3141
01:51:07,669 --> 01:51:04,080
okay i wanted to or maybe we did next

3142
01:51:09,109 --> 01:51:07,679
point you know what i mean

3143
01:51:10,870 --> 01:51:09,119
that's another aspect we can talk about

3144
01:51:11,830 --> 01:51:10,880
how much of reality is fractal like

3145
01:51:13,669 --> 01:51:11,840
where

3146
01:51:15,350 --> 01:51:13,679
the examination of any element if you

3147
01:51:17,669 --> 01:51:15,360
pursue it far enough is the examination

3148
01:51:19,350 --> 01:51:17,679
of the whole now i know cantor believed

3149
01:51:22,390 --> 01:51:19,360
that by studying infinity mathematically

3150
01:51:23,990 --> 01:51:22,400
he was studying the mind or studying god

3151
01:51:25,750 --> 01:51:24,000
per se and some people think why are you

3152
01:51:27,990 --> 01:51:25,760
wasting your time if you're someone who

3153
01:51:30,070 --> 01:51:28,000
cares about the good why are you

3154
01:51:31,990 --> 01:51:30,080
caring about mathematics or physics or

3155
01:51:33,990 --> 01:51:32,000
well hey man maybe if you're truthfully

3156
01:51:36,550 --> 01:51:34,000
exploring something you're trying and i

3157
01:51:37,990 --> 01:51:36,560
i take questions to your not questions i

3158
01:51:39,189 --> 01:51:38,000
take exception to one of your rules

3159
01:51:41,830 --> 01:51:39,199
which is

3160
01:51:43,750 --> 01:51:41,840
tell the truth i like the i like the the

3161
01:51:45,430 --> 01:51:43,760
codicil which is or at least not lie but

3162
01:51:47,189 --> 01:51:45,440
i would reverse that i'd say don't lie

3163
01:51:49,430 --> 01:51:47,199
and try to tell the truth because it's

3164
01:51:51,270 --> 01:51:49,440
much easier to feel like you're telling

3165
01:51:53,030 --> 01:51:51,280
the truth when you're not you can trick

3166
01:51:54,950 --> 01:51:53,040
yourself and i think the majority of the

3167
01:51:56,709 --> 01:51:54,960
time we think we're telling the truth

3168
01:51:58,550 --> 01:51:56,719
isn't and that's another reason i pause

3169
01:52:00,709 --> 01:51:58,560
because yeah well you just don't start

3170
01:52:04,629 --> 01:52:00,719
you start by stopping lying

3171
01:52:08,470 --> 01:52:06,229
it's not easy to discern what is

3172
01:52:10,709 --> 01:52:08,480
actually that what i think and what's a

3173
01:52:12,390 --> 01:52:10,719
reflex that just comes to me so i'm

3174
01:52:14,149 --> 01:52:12,400
trying to make sure

3175
01:52:17,189 --> 01:52:14,159
well anyway we can talk about free well

3176
01:52:19,189 --> 01:52:17,199
another time

3177
01:52:20,629 --> 01:52:19,199
it was really good talking to you man

3178
01:52:22,310 --> 01:52:20,639
yeah it was great talking to you with

3179
01:52:23,910 --> 01:52:22,320
your continued endeavors and and with

3180
01:52:25,830 --> 01:52:23,920
your podcast and

3181
01:52:27,990 --> 01:52:25,840
i i really liked your idea about not

3182
01:52:29,669 --> 01:52:28,000
saying the same thing twice the same way

3183
01:52:31,830 --> 01:52:29,679
that's that's a real interesting mental

3184
01:52:34,310 --> 01:52:31,840
habit disciplinary habit

3185
01:52:35,830 --> 01:52:34,320
that's smart like what's what's 4 to the

3186
01:52:37,990 --> 01:52:35,840
power 4

3187
01:52:39,830 --> 01:52:38,000
256 okay so how do you know that you can

3188
01:52:41,589 --> 01:52:39,840
memorize it but another way is that you

3189
01:52:43,350 --> 01:52:41,599
can go well what's 4 to the power 5.

3190
01:52:44,950 --> 01:52:43,360
well that's 2 to the power 10 that's 10

3191
01:52:46,790 --> 01:52:44,960
24 if you're a computer scientist you

3192
01:52:49,030 --> 01:52:46,800
know that because you deal with bits and

3193
01:52:51,030 --> 01:52:49,040
then you can say well what's 2 so what's

3194
01:52:53,189 --> 01:52:51,040
4 to the power 3 64. so you can bound it

3195
01:52:54,550 --> 01:52:53,199
from each side 4 to the power 3 4 to the

3196
01:52:55,750 --> 01:52:54,560
power 5 and then you get a better

3197
01:52:57,750 --> 01:52:55,760
understanding of what it means to be 4

3198
01:52:59,350 --> 01:52:57,760
to the power 4. so the more

3199
01:53:01,589 --> 01:52:59,360
even if it's slight alterations and

3200
01:53:03,030 --> 01:53:01,599
you're of saying the same phenomenon of

3201
01:53:04,310 --> 01:53:03,040
sorry of trying to describe the same

3202
01:53:06,149 --> 01:53:04,320
phenomenon you get a better

3203
01:53:09,910 --> 01:53:06,159
understanding of it and when you're

3204
01:53:15,430 --> 01:53:12,950
i never give the same lecture twice

3205
01:53:17,030 --> 01:53:15,440
yeah and that's not easy man no

3206
01:53:19,830 --> 01:53:17,040
but it's uh it's pretty damn

3207
01:53:22,470 --> 01:53:19,840
entertaining i'll tell you

3208
01:53:24,830 --> 01:53:22,480
yeah so before we go i'm curious why it

3209
01:53:26,790 --> 01:53:24,840
is that you why is it that you do these

3210
01:53:28,310 --> 01:53:26,800
podcasts what are you trying to

3211
01:53:30,310 --> 01:53:28,320
accomplish with them so one is obviously

3212
01:53:32,070 --> 01:53:30,320
you're trying to learn and obviously

3213
01:53:33,910 --> 01:53:32,080
you've attained some level of fame and

3214
01:53:36,149 --> 01:53:33,920
wealth so it's not as if you want more

3215
01:53:38,870 --> 01:53:36,159
perhaps you do i mean we can't

3216
01:53:41,350 --> 01:53:38,880
discount selfish motivations but what is

3217
01:53:43,030 --> 01:53:41,360
the reason that you hope the good reason

3218
01:53:45,030 --> 01:53:43,040
in you is

3219
01:53:46,390 --> 01:53:45,040
to have conversations like this and to

3220
01:53:48,229 --> 01:53:46,400
share them with as many people as

3221
01:53:49,910 --> 01:53:48,239
possible in the hopes that we'll build

3222
01:53:53,270 --> 01:53:49,920
better people and not burn the world

3223
01:53:57,669 --> 01:53:54,550
yeah

3224
01:53:59,910 --> 01:53:57,679
i'm focusing on the left and you

3225
01:54:01,589 --> 01:53:59,920
mentioned it's not

3226
01:54:04,149 --> 01:54:01,599
see some people caught from the left

3227
01:54:05,669 --> 01:54:04,159
called the right reactionary well so

3228
01:54:07,270 --> 01:54:05,679
it seems like perhaps what you're doing

3229
01:54:09,589 --> 01:54:07,280
on the extreme left you can even if you

3230
01:54:11,350 --> 01:54:09,599
feel like the right is more damaging you

3231
01:54:13,189 --> 01:54:11,360
don't think you're provoking the right

3232
01:54:15,189 --> 01:54:13,199
also the left is more amenable to reason

3233
01:54:17,109 --> 01:54:15,199
and at least colloquially it's more

3234
01:54:18,709 --> 01:54:17,119
amenable to reasons so i thought perhaps

3235
01:54:20,470 --> 01:54:18,719
i should pursue that and i'm more

3236
01:54:22,629 --> 01:54:20,480
interested the right is blatant in the

3237
01:54:25,990 --> 01:54:22,639
racism so it's like well that's a five

3238
01:54:28,149 --> 01:54:26,000
minute film if i'm to analyze the right

3239
01:54:29,750 --> 01:54:28,159
and it's yeah so i'll just i'll let

3240
01:54:31,350 --> 01:54:29,760
people know about

3241
01:54:33,589 --> 01:54:31,360
if they'd like to see

3242
01:54:34,870 --> 01:54:33,599
more about me they can visit theories of

3243
01:54:36,470 --> 01:54:34,880
everything so you can just type that

3244
01:54:40,070 --> 01:54:36,480
into youtube there are conversations

3245
01:54:41,990 --> 01:54:40,080
much like this jordan where i'm super

3246
01:54:44,629 --> 01:54:42,000
so fascinated no i wouldn't say my

3247
01:54:46,709 --> 01:54:44,639
motivations are are pure i'm fascinated

3248
01:54:48,629 --> 01:54:46,719
by consciousness physics free will and

3249
01:54:49,430 --> 01:54:48,639
god

3250
01:54:55,109 --> 01:54:49,440
and

3251
01:54:57,270 --> 01:54:55,119
desprising like most people

3252
01:54:59,669 --> 01:54:57,280
i think that disparagement is what

3253
01:55:01,669 --> 01:54:59,679
well in many ways is holding us back

3254
01:55:03,910 --> 01:55:01,679
so i'm trying to bring some rigor some

3255
01:55:05,990 --> 01:55:03,920
exactitude to it because not that's

3256
01:55:07,350 --> 01:55:06,000
actually well

3257
01:55:09,350 --> 01:55:07,360
we can talk about that and then for

3258
01:55:10,550 --> 01:55:09,360
better left unsaid if people want to see

3259
01:55:13,270 --> 01:55:10,560
you can go to better left and said

3260
01:55:15,270 --> 01:55:13,280
film.com that i try to bring some of the

3261
01:55:16,790 --> 01:55:15,280
same analytical framework to exploring

3262
01:55:18,310 --> 01:55:16,800
the concept of not exploring the

3263
01:55:20,870 --> 01:55:18,320
question of when does the left go too

3264
01:55:23,430 --> 01:55:20,880
far and it's such an incomplete film i

3265
01:55:25,669 --> 01:55:23,440
disavow it in many ways because it's

3266
01:55:27,750 --> 01:55:25,679
it's so incomplete but it's almost like

3267
01:55:30,070 --> 01:55:27,760
homework i have to submit it at some

3268
01:55:31,510 --> 01:55:30,080
point

3269
01:55:34,390 --> 01:55:31,520
yep

3270
01:55:37,270 --> 01:55:34,400
enjoyed absolutely thank you man

3271
01:55:40,070 --> 01:55:37,280
ciao man really good talking to you

3272
01:55:41,750 --> 01:55:40,080
it flew by and uh you're very artificial

3273
01:55:45,030 --> 01:55:41,760
thoughtful and you're very careful with

3274
01:55:47,109 --> 01:55:45,040
your words and so good for you man

3275
01:55:51,510 --> 01:55:47,119
yeah i oh thank you that's a huge

3276
01:55:54,629 --> 01:55:53,030
good to talk to you

3277
01:55:56,950 --> 01:55:54,639
take care man

3278
01:55:59,510 --> 01:55:56,960
okay the podcast is over thank you so

3279
01:56:01,910 --> 01:55:59,520
much for sticking around for almost

3280
01:56:03,910 --> 01:56:01,920
two hours i have some announcements so

3281
01:56:06,310 --> 01:56:03,920
some people firstly don't like to sit

3282
01:56:07,589 --> 01:56:06,320
through hour long videos or two hours or

3283
01:56:09,669 --> 01:56:07,599
three hours not like you you're a

3284
01:56:11,270 --> 01:56:09,679
trooper but some people don't like that

3285
01:56:14,229 --> 01:56:11,280
they'd rather these five-minute

3286
01:56:16,390 --> 01:56:14,239
20-minute 15-minute shareable chunks

3287
01:56:19,589 --> 01:56:16,400
there's a clips version of this channel

3288
01:56:22,310 --> 01:56:19,599
you just search toe clippings on youtube

3289
01:56:23,910 --> 01:56:22,320
a bit cautiously

3290
01:56:25,830 --> 01:56:23,920
because there's

3291
01:56:26,790 --> 01:56:25,840
clearly some horrific material that will

3292
01:56:28,950 --> 01:56:26,800
show up

3293
01:56:30,790 --> 01:56:28,960
you'll see the toe logo except it's blue

3294
01:56:32,229 --> 01:56:30,800
you can click on that and that's a place

3295
01:56:34,390 --> 01:56:32,239
where different sections of the larger

3296
01:56:37,030 --> 01:56:34,400
podcast are uploaded also on that same

3297
01:56:38,709 --> 01:56:37,040
channel soon maybe even right now i'll

3298
01:56:40,629 --> 01:56:38,719
be doing live streams you can check it

3299
01:56:43,270 --> 01:56:40,639
out i may be there live streaming

3300
01:56:45,270 --> 01:56:43,280
currently with themes that don't exactly

3301
01:56:46,870 --> 01:56:45,280
fit the toad channel the main tow

3302
01:56:49,270 --> 01:56:46,880
channel plus i don't want to clutter the

3303
01:56:51,669 --> 01:56:49,280
main tow channel so for example maybe i

3304
01:56:54,390 --> 01:56:51,679
do a live stream with another podcaster

3305
01:56:56,229 --> 01:56:54,400
or maybe it's me and i'm studying for a

3306
01:56:58,149 --> 01:56:56,239
toe and i'm there just communicating

3307
01:56:59,910 --> 01:56:58,159
with the chat while i'm live streaming

3308
01:57:02,870 --> 01:56:59,920
in the background the last announcement

3309
01:57:05,270 --> 01:57:02,880
is again patreon that is patreon.com

3310
01:57:07,510 --> 01:57:05,280
kurtjmungle there should be

3311
01:57:09,910 --> 01:57:07,520
a url on screen as well as in the

3312
01:57:13,030 --> 01:57:09,920
description the patrons and the sponsors

3313
01:57:15,189 --> 01:57:13,040
are the only reason that i'm able to do

3314
01:57:18,790 --> 01:57:15,199
toe full time that i'm able to put in

3315
01:57:20,390 --> 01:57:18,800
this much energy effort turmoil or or

3316
01:57:22,390 --> 01:57:20,400
whatever one wants to call it i happen

3317
01:57:25,589 --> 01:57:22,400
to get an extreme amount of excitement

3318
01:57:27,350 --> 01:57:25,599
and enthusiasm doing toe toe and my

3319
01:57:28,229 --> 01:57:27,360
wife are the

3320
01:57:30,550 --> 01:57:28,239
two

3321
01:57:31,669 --> 01:57:30,560
aspects of my life that i just i can't

3322
01:57:34,470 --> 01:57:31,679
believe how

3323
01:57:35,430 --> 01:57:34,480
lucky i am how blessed i am to be able

3324
01:57:36,830 --> 01:57:35,440
to do

3325
01:57:41,750 --> 01:57:36,840
so visit

3326
01:57:45,510 --> 01:57:43,910
and even if you're not interested in

3327
01:57:47,990 --> 01:57:45,520
contributing because you can't just

3328
01:57:50,149 --> 01:57:48,000
visit the site perhaps you can share it

3329
01:57:51,510 --> 01:57:50,159
to a friend if they're in the position

3330
01:57:55,030 --> 01:57:51,520
where they would like or want to

3331
01:57:56,709 --> 01:57:55,040
contribute either way thank you so much

3332
01:57:59,350 --> 01:57:56,719
your viewership is more than

3333
01:58:00,629 --> 01:57:59,360
contribution enough it's astounding

3334
01:58:02,470 --> 01:58:00,639
you're still here you're still listening

3335
01:58:04,229 --> 01:58:02,480
to this you're still watching this thank

3336
01:58:06,149 --> 01:58:04,239
you thank you and i'm super glad that

3337
01:58:08,070 --> 01:58:06,159
you're gaining from toe i hope that

3338
01:58:10,149 --> 01:58:08,080
you're gaining from toe it's an extreme

3339
01:58:13,030 --> 01:58:10,159
honor and an extreme

3340
01:58:17,669 --> 01:58:13,040
privilege to have you

3341
01:58:21,350 --> 01:58:19,589
the podcast is now finished if you'd

3342
01:58:24,470 --> 01:58:21,360
like to support conversations like this

3343
01:58:28,629 --> 01:58:24,480
then do consider going to patreon.com

3344
01:58:31,189 --> 01:58:28,639
c-u-r-t j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a-l

3345
01:58:33,030 --> 01:58:31,199
that is kurt jymungal it's support from

3346
01:58:34,870 --> 01:58:33,040
the patrons and from the sponsors that